Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

[Sons to Glory!]

Since there haven't been any more responses in the last several days on this topic, I thought to summarize:

• In Adam, we were all sinners
• When regenerated with the new birth, believers are now a new creation in Christ
• Our old man was crucified
• The blood of Christ cleanses us 100%
• Our life is hidden with Christ - He is our life (we were put in Him by God)
• Believers are made God's children because of His life in us
• Our identity is in Him
• Though we saints may sin, we are no longer identified specifically as "sinners"

If none of the above is clear, I suggest reading through this thread, which gives various verses and illustrations regarding the matter. (or just ask)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Since there haven't been any more responses in the last several days on this topic, I thought to summarize:

• In Adam, we were all sinners
• When regenerated with the new birth, believers are now a new creation in Christ
• Our old man was crucified
• The blood of Christ cleanses us 100%
• Our life is hidden with Christ - He is our life (we were put in Him by God)
• Believers are made God's children because of His life in us
• Our identity is in Him
• Though we saints may sin, we are no longer identified specifically as "sinners"

If none of the above is clear, I suggest reading through this thread, which gives various verses and illustrations regarding the matter. (or just ask)

The list again does not give a complete and accurate picture. It reflects our positional status, objectively, but it's short on the subjective side. We could be living in the opposite of each of these items.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The list again does not give a complete and accurate picture. It reflects our positional status, objectively, but it's short on the subjective side. We could be living in the opposite of each of these items.

The "objective side" is as God sees us, right? So that's where our focus should be.

The Bible is not shy about talking about our issues and subjective experiences. However, we are exhorted in the New Covenant that the way to victory is to not look so much at those things and identify with them, but rather look to Jesus and who we are in Him!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The "objective side" is as God sees us, right? So that's where our focus should be.

The Bible is not shy about talking about our issues and subjective experiences. However, we are exhorted in the New Covenant that the way to victory is to not look so much at those things and identify with them, but rather look to Jesus and who we are in Him!

No, not exactly, God gives us the objective side but will judge us based on the subjective side, and He will see all of it and show it to us in the light at the JSoC.. If all you do is identify with the objective side, you risk to be deceived. For example, just one of your points, being washed 100% by His blood: yes objectively, but subjectively, probably most christians have unconfessed sins, and risk to suffer loss at the judgement seat of Christ. Yes, our old man has been crucified with Christ, but Paul also says, those who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts. How many of us have crucified the flesh today in our experience? Did not the Lord admonish us to take up the cross daily? So many christians think everything is OK, even some will prophesy, expel demons and do works of power in His name, and they will be effective, yet the Lord sees them as workers of lawlessness. You need to balance your view. You oversimplify the "way to victory", it includes confessing all those things and dealing with them, Rev. 2&3 ring a bell?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

No, not exactly, God gives us the objective side but will judge us based on the subjective side, and He will see all of it and show it to us in the light at the JSoC.. If all you do is identify with the objective side, you risk to be deceived. For example, just one of your points, being washed 100% by His blood: yes objectively, but subjectively, probably most christians have unconfessed sins, and risk to suffer loss at the judgement seat of Christ. Yes, our old man has been crucified with Christ, but Paul also says, those who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts. How many of us have crucified the flesh today in our experience? Did not the Lord admonish us to take up the cross daily? So many christians think everything is OK, even some will prophesy, expel demons and do works of power in His name, and they will be effective, yet the Lord sees them as workers of lawlessness. You need to balance your view. You oversimplify the "way to victory", it includes confessing all those things and dealing with them, Rev. 2&3 ring a bell?

Raptor you are prolly a lone voice of these truths. Not only here but most churches.

I remember one time I was speaking in a home meeting (after leaving the LC) about confessing our sins. I was merely supporting comments from a book we were reading together by Max Lucado. A sister, supported by her husband, immediately shut me down in front of everyone, saying Jesus had already forgiven all of our sins, so we never need to repent. She emphatically stated that our role now was only to worship God, nothing more. I was effectively black-listed as a heretic, and not invited back.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

No, not exactly, God gives us the objective side but will judge us based on the subjective side, and He will see all of it and show it to us in the light at the JSoC.. If all you do is identify with the objective side, you risk to be deceived. For example, just one of your points, being washed 100% by His blood: yes objectively, but subjectively, probably most christians have unconfessed sins, and risk to suffer loss at the judgement seat of Christ. Yes, our old man has been crucified with Christ, but Paul also says, those who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts. How many of us have crucified the flesh today in our experience? Did not the Lord admonish us to take up the cross daily? So many christians think everything is OK, even some will prophesy, expel demons and do works of power in His name, and they will be effective, yet the Lord sees them as workers of lawlessness. You need to balance your view. You oversimplify the "way to victory", it includes confessing all those things and dealing with them, Rev. 2&3 ring a bell?

Received. Good balancing word!

I think there is always the twofold aspect to spiritual things and the "cake" needs to be turned over. That is, there is the spiritual reality of who He has made us, and there is also our experience. (The ol' "fact-faith-feeling" train comes into play here.)

And doesn't confession mean "saying the same thing" (Greek - homologeó: to speak the same, to agree)? When we sin and confess it to Him - and not try to hide it - we are agreeing with Him that it is something off the mark, and that we need His help with. This opens the door for Him to come into that area of our life and change us. As 1st John tells us He is then faithful AND righteous to forgive us - because His one sacrifice did it all! We just need to agree with Him (and again, that includes being open with Him about our sin).

(and BTW - going to the other extreme is someone constantly confessing sin with an overactive sin consciousness! There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, because He took it all and His blood IS all efficacious. However, as Paul says in 1 Cor 10:23, while "all things are lawful . . . not all things are profitable." Therefore we must guard our hearts before Him and run the race well - not looking at our sin, but to JESUS!!!)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Received. Good balancing word!

And doesn't confession mean "saying the same thing" (Greek - homologeó: to speak the same, to agree)? When we sin and confess it to Him - and not try to hide it - we are agreeing with Him that it is something off the mark, and that we need His help with. This opens the door for Him to come into that area of our life and change us. As 1st John tells us He is then faithful AND righteous to forgive us - because His one sacrifice did it all! We just need to agree with Him (and again, that includes being open with Him about our sin).

yes, and I confess somewhat of a smart alec attitude

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

yes, and I confess somewhat of a smart alec attitude

That means yer a Sinner!!! (oh yes, I do kill me!)

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Since there haven't been any more responses in the last several days on this topic, I thought to summarize:

• In Adam, we were all sinners
• When regenerated with the new birth, believers are now a new creation in Christ
• Our old man was crucified
• The blood of Christ cleanses us 100%
• Our life is hidden with Christ - He is our life (we were put in Him by God)
• Believers are made God's children because of His life in us
• Our identity is in Him
• Though we saints may sin, we are no longer identified specifically as "sinners"

If none of the above is clear, I suggest reading through this thread, which gives various verses and illustrations regarding the matter. (or just ask)

The Bible does say (1 John 1:8-10, BLB) “if we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just, that He may forgive us our sins and might cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we should say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

The Bible does say (1 John 1:8-10, BLB) “if we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just, that He may forgive us our sins and might cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we should say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”

Correct! Saints who still sometimes sin (and in my case, more often than not)!

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You guys are cracking me up. THAT is a picture of a dead cow. Too funny. And is there such a camp, or was that a joke?? I love that assessment, was it Arons? We stand before the Lord in confession of our sin, and simultaneously send Satan and his accusations away, rightfully so. I agree!

Yup! There certainly is a "Dead Horse Ranch State Park" here in Arizona. It's the wild west partmer!

[Trapped]

James 5:19-20
¹⁹ My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, ²⁰ remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

I haven't followed this particular thread closely enough to know if it was resolved, but I just wanted to throw this verse into the mix. From context it seems like he is calling a believer (brothers/sisters/one of you) "a sinner" if they wander from the truth. What constitutes "wandering from the truth", I don't know, but this verse would possibly imply that you can be saved and still be a sinner, depending on conduct, i.e. I guess, depending on whether or not you sin.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

James 5:19-20
¹⁹ My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, ²⁰ remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

I haven't followed this particular thread closely enough to know if it was resolved, but I just wanted to throw this verse into the mix. From context it seems like he is calling a believer (brothers/sisters/one of you) "a sinner" if they wander from the truth. What constitutes "wandering from the truth", I don't know, but this verse would possibly imply that you can be saved and still be a sinner, depending on conduct, i.e. I guess, depending on whether or not you sin.

Trapped

This morning at the weekly brothers' breakfast, someone who works with people who had been in prison, talked about how everyone calls them ex-cons. They have paid their debt, but their identity will always be known as ex-cons. They are no longer convicts, but this history seems to haunt them for the rest of their life. And even if they don't view themselves as an ex-con, society still does. (I don't think this should be . . .)

For instance, a brother we know well was in prison 20 years ago for about four years for a drug related thing. Since he got out he has been 100% clean, worked the same job and has been the most responsible and caring person, pursuing Christ wholeheartedly. However, he tried to rent a place recently and was denied, because the record still shows he was in prison 20 years ago. It is something always hung around his neck.

Why do I convey this? Because it occurred to me this morning that this is not so in Christ - He fully paid the debt to the uttermost, and our history is annulled in Him! At least these ex-convicts are not still called convicts, because the reality is they are out. We have been released from captivity in Christ, so why do we call ourselves captives to sin and identify with the old history? These ones who have been in prison may be called ex-cons . . . shouldn't we who have been freed in Christ at least say we are ex-sinners!? Though we may sin, that is not now who we have been made in His new creation - He has transferred us out of darkness, into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

Though in reality we're not sinners by nature any more (we do still have the old flesh and its lusts), because we are now partakers of the divine nature (and yes, we may still sometimes sin). As CS Lewis said, though we have been made royalty in Him, we still often seem to prefer making mud pies in the ghetto, and ignore the grand estate we possess on the ocean! (if we do choose to make mud pies, at least we should do it by our "ocean estate"! )

So I propose that if we must refer to our old history, perhaps we say we are ex-sinners, rather than sinners! What do you think?

[OBW]

Ex-Sinners?

It might be sort of true. But it is unlikely that it is ever fully true.

It seems like the more certain we are that we have conquered some problem, whether some small sinful behavior or something serious, we find that it is once again knocking on our door and causing problems.

Maybe it is better to treat all aspects of sin like the alcoholics (and others) treat their addictions at AA, OA, NarcAnon, etc.

Several years ago, I joked (but seriously) that I should introduce myself as follows:

"Hi! I'm Mike. (Hi Mike.) I was once a member of a cult."

I took this somewhat tongue-in-cheek approach so that I did not somehow feel the need to keep my past hidden or keep from digging through it. You know, try to keep from hiding it behind a curtain — even from myself.

Maybe we should do the same for sin. "Hi! I'm Mike. I am a sinner." Don't give myself the opportunity to let my guard down and open up to a new assault by the Evil One.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

Maybe we should do the same for sin. "Hi! I'm Mike. I am a sinner." Don't give myself the opportunity to let my guard down and open up to a new assault by the Evil One.

This is sin consciousness. Does God have sin consciousness toward us?