Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

[Trapped]

James 5:19-20
¹⁹ My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, ²⁰ remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

I haven't followed this particular thread closely enough to know if it was resolved, but I just wanted to throw this verse into the mix. From context it seems like he is calling a believer (brothers/sisters/one of you) "a sinner" if they wander from the truth. What constitutes "wandering from the truth", I don't know, but this verse would possibly imply that you can be saved and still be a sinner, depending on conduct, i.e. I guess, depending on whether or not you sin.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

James 5:19-20
¹⁹ My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, ²⁰ remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

I haven't followed this particular thread closely enough to know if it was resolved, but I just wanted to throw this verse into the mix. From context it seems like he is calling a believer (brothers/sisters/one of you) "a sinner" if they wander from the truth. What constitutes "wandering from the truth", I don't know, but this verse would possibly imply that you can be saved and still be a sinner, depending on conduct, i.e. I guess, depending on whether or not you sin.

Trapped

This morning at the weekly brothers' breakfast, someone who works with people who had been in prison, talked about how everyone calls them ex-cons. They have paid their debt, but their identity will always be known as ex-cons. They are no longer convicts, but this history seems to haunt them for the rest of their life. And even if they don't view themselves as an ex-con, society still does. (I don't think this should be . . .)

For instance, a brother we know well was in prison 20 years ago for about four years for a drug related thing. Since he got out he has been 100% clean, worked the same job and has been the most responsible and caring person, pursuing Christ wholeheartedly. However, he tried to rent a place recently and was denied, because the record still shows he was in prison 20 years ago. It is something always hung around his neck.

Why do I convey this? Because it occurred to me this morning that this is not so in Christ - He fully paid the debt to the uttermost, and our history is annulled in Him! At least these ex-convicts are not still called convicts, because the reality is they are out. We have been released from captivity in Christ, so why do we call ourselves captives to sin and identify with the old history? These ones who have been in prison may be called ex-cons . . . shouldn't we who have been freed in Christ at least say we are ex-sinners!? Though we may sin, that is not now who we have been made in His new creation - He has transferred us out of darkness, into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

Though in reality we're not sinners by nature any more (we do still have the old flesh and its lusts), because we are now partakers of the divine nature (and yes, we may still sometimes sin). As CS Lewis said, though we have been made royalty in Him, we still often seem to prefer making mud pies in the ghetto, and ignore the grand estate we possess on the ocean! (if we do choose to make mud pies, at least we should do it by our "ocean estate"! )

So I propose that if we must refer to our old history, perhaps we say we are ex-sinners, rather than sinners! What do you think?

[OBW]

Ex-Sinners?

It might be sort of true. But it is unlikely that it is ever fully true.

It seems like the more certain we are that we have conquered some problem, whether some small sinful behavior or something serious, we find that it is once again knocking on our door and causing problems.

Maybe it is better to treat all aspects of sin like the alcoholics (and others) treat their addictions at AA, OA, NarcAnon, etc.

Several years ago, I joked (but seriously) that I should introduce myself as follows:

"Hi! I'm Mike. (Hi Mike.) I was once a member of a cult."

I took this somewhat tongue-in-cheek approach so that I did not somehow feel the need to keep my past hidden or keep from digging through it. You know, try to keep from hiding it behind a curtain — even from myself.

Maybe we should do the same for sin. "Hi! I'm Mike. I am a sinner." Don't give myself the opportunity to let my guard down and open up to a new assault by the Evil One.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

Maybe we should do the same for sin. "Hi! I'm Mike. I am a sinner." Don't give myself the opportunity to let my guard down and open up to a new assault by the Evil One.

This is sin consciousness. Does God have sin consciousness toward us?

[OBW]

Our sins are forgiven. But does that refer only to those committed, or also to those yet to be committed?

We no longer require the blood of bulls goats, etc., for our sin. But do we rightly read that we are free of the consequence of further sin? Not saying that salvation is lost. But I believe there is still a need for repentance.

And if there is still a need for repentance, then why just declare ourselves free of any consequence for sin? Transformation/sanctification should be a process that moves us toward (but never completely to, in this life-time) sinlessness. It does not happen if we merely turn a blind eye to the sin that remains.

Remember, we rightly state that the crucifixion was the only act that saved us, yet following that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is for this that stepping beyond the "free gift" is required.

Otherwise, it is just a transactional salvation that leaves us functionally as permanent toddlers. . . still pooping in our pants and sticking our fingers in the fan when we should be moving through life in a progressively more responsible way. Not the best metaphor, but still a good picture. (otherwise, what is a meta for??)

[Sons to Glory!]

This is not really the issue. Yes we still sin and there are various negative consequences of sinning, however there is no condemnation. And where does Paul, or any of the other NT authors, say we should identify ourselves as sinners? Rather, in an overwhelming number of instances, we are told to identify ourselves as saints/sons in a new creation.

[UntoHim]

Who ever said we should "identify ourselves" as sinners? I've never actually heard anyone teach this, or anything like this. To be sure, neither the Lord Jesus nor any of the scripture writing apostles taught anything like this. I think the biblical view is that all true believers are sinners saved by grace. Since this is how God "identifies" us, I think we can safely identify ourselves and other believers as sinners saved by grace. I doubt that many of us are good enough theologians to delve too much further into this matter, lest we end up like Witness Lee, who taught that Satan is dwelling in our flesh.

God have mercy.
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