Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If you think you have a specific passage where we (born-again, regenerated, called-out ones) are designated as sinners, let's fellowship about it!

And if you think you have a specific passage where Paul writes that we (believers) are no longer to be designated sinners, let's present that for fellowship as well. Otherwise, we're left with your inferences.

Unbelieving sinners and sinful believers both have the flesh of sin, and both suffer as a consequence. But no one here is saying there's no difference in their sufferings! We know that the weak flesh transforms the believer's soul. The point is, that to identify as a "believer" is to say that there is a difference in the life and it's subsequent suffering. Else why believe?

I get the concept you promote, which has attractive simplicity: terms affect identity which affects repetitive patterns of action. But the danger in assumed identity lies is in unfounded presumptions, and subsequently basing one's life on hopeful inferences as if they were truths. For example, Nee and Lee wrote treatises on the Song of Songs, teaching that it showed the fully transformed Christian believer at the end, awaiting rapture. But if you look at the actual lives of these two, I don't see them reflecting this. So their teaching actually became a mask for their continual sinful activities.

(And Nee getting sacked by the SCA elders for living with a woman not his wife is by definition "sinful". If you can't trust the judgment of local church elders, then who can you trust? They ruled on the matter.)

We already know Jesus' identity. My own identity or self-image is therefore of knowing who Jesus is, the Lord and Christ, and Saviour of the world, and then trying to reconcile behaviours to vision. Beyond that, I don't see benefit in terms, whether calling myself "occasional sinner who believes" or "believer who occasionally sins". The doing is what matters. And God will judge the doing.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

And if you think you have a specific passage where Paul writes that we (believers) are no longer to be designated sinners, let's present that for fellowship as well. Otherwise, we're left with your inferences.

Unbelieving sinners and sinful believers both have the flesh of sin, and both suffer as a consequence. But no one here is saying there's no difference in their sufferings! We know that the weak flesh transforms the believer's soul. The point is, that to identify as a "believer" is to say that there is a difference in the life and it's subsequent suffering. Else why believe?

I get the concept you promote, which has attractive simplicity: terms affect identity which affects repetitive patterns of action. But the danger in assumed identity lies is in unfounded presumptions, and subsequently basing one's life on hopeful inferences as if they were truths. For example, Nee and Lee wrote treatises on the Song of Songs, teaching that it showed the fully transformed Christian believer at the end, awaiting rapture. But if you look at the actual lives of these two, I don't see them reflecting this. So their teaching actually became a mask for their continual sinful activities.

(And Nee getting sacked by the SCA elders for living with a woman not his wife is by definition "sinful". If you can't trust the judgment of local church elders, then who can you trust? They ruled on the matter.)

We already know Jesus' identity. My own identity or self-image is therefore of knowing who Jesus is, the Lord and Christ, and Saviour of the world, and then trying to reconcile behaviours to vision. Beyond that, I don't see benefit in terms, whether calling myself "occasional sinner who believes" or "believer who occasionally sins". The doing is what matters. And God will judge the doing.

Well lest Ohio come on here and hit me with the "dead horse" thingie, maybe we should just let it go where it is. If you really want, we can go into many verses and passages about who we are in Christ, however, a few have been shared earlier in this thread. It comes down to experience vs. the reality in spirit. Paul certainly mentions things related to our experiences, thoughts and feelings, but encourages us to look to Christ and who we are in Him - a new creation. (aka sin conscience vs. Christ conscience)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well lest Ohio come on here and hit me with the "dead horse" thingie,

We're long past that point.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We're long past that point.

And to think that just last week we were camping in Dead Horse Ranch State Park!

[aron]

It's possible that StG and I were merely stressing different aspects of the same undivided whole (I won't include other posters' comments as I wasn't paying attention . . .)

Notice that I used the word "position", rather than "nature". I feel that our position before God should properly be as penitent sinners. Yes, even "chief of sinners".

But our position before the adversary is, "Be gone, Satan!" Yes, we are kings. Sin should not rule over us. I just don't think we should be presumptuous before the Day of Judgment.

But I may have hijacked a perfectly reasonable discussion with my own drum-beating. It has happened before.

Certainly StG and I would receive each other in a meeting (assembly, fellowship, 'ekklesia'), irrespective of how we use terms. Jesus is the Lord.

[Raptor]

I think one of the implied definitions in the Bible for the word "sinner" is unbeliever, these seem to be used synonymously. Actually, the unique sin, the one sin that causes people to end up in the lake of fire under God's judgement is unbelief in the Son of God who died for us and was raised. So it follows to say that if you believe in the gospel, then you are no longer a sinner in that sense.

Nevertheless even as repentant sinners, redeemed people and regenerated sons of God, we still have the flesh and the self; the sinful nature still dwells in us and we do sin, and maybe not just occasionally. Actually, the more we go on in the Lord, the more His light should shine in us exposing so many things He wants us to confess and deal with.

I think the healthy view of our status is again, a dual status, basically we are saved sinners. If we emphasize one too much, we either end up in condemnation (on the side of "sinner", i.e. "I cannot go on, God hates me, I am worthless") or delusion (on the side of "saint", i.e."I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing").

So yes, we as saved believers who still have the flesh are and can be:

• Born again
• Crucified
• Dead to sin
• Washed
• Redeemed
• Alive to God
• Saints
• Sons of God
• children of light
• faithful
• wise
• prudent
• overcoming
• holy
• blameless

AND/OR

• evil
• evil and slothful slave
• worker of lawlessness
• useless slave
• lukewarm
• wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked
• foolish
• dead
• loveless
• fornicator
• adulterer
• idolater
• effeminate
• homosexual
• unrighteous
• profane
• defeated

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

So yes, we as saved believers who still have the flesh are and can be:

• Born again
• Crucified
• Dead to sin
• Washed
• Redeemed
• Alive to God
• Saints
• Sons of God
• children of light
• faithful
• wise
• prudent
• overcoming
• holy
• blameless
  Add
• victorious
• faithful
• righteous
• light
• loving
• long suffering

AND/OR

• evil
• evil and slothful slave
• worker of lawlessness
• useless slave
• lukewarm
• wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked
• foolish
• dead
• loveless
• fornicator
• adulterer
• idolater
• effeminate
• homosexual
• unrighteous
• profane
• defeated
  And add
• MURDERER!
• SINNER
• lovers of self
• prideful/boasters

Unregenerated only have the fleshly list to draw upon; Regenerated ones have the choice to draw on either. We have the freedom to do so. God says, "Today I have placed before you death and life . . . choose life!"

So we can choose to have our source in the flesh, but that's not who we are. We are new creations in Christ!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And to think that just last week we were camping in Dead Horse Ranch State Park!

Perhaps a sign from heaven for us all?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And to think that just last week we were camping in Dead Horse Ranch State Park!

You guys are cracking me up. THAT is a picture of a dead cow. Too funny. And is there such a camp, or was that a joke?? I love that assessment, was it Arons? We stand before the Lord in confession of our sin, and simultaneously send Satan and his accusations away, rightfully so. I agree!