1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

Ohio · 07-31-2019, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ok, this is all very interesting. Thank you all for contributing to this conversation. What it brings up for me is another point, related to this subject, wherein I disagree with LC doctrine. In the LC, believers were divided into at least two categories, overcomes and those who have not overcome. This is another doctrine which directly contradicts scripture, though.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. Vs. 5 Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This verse tells me that I and every born again believer of Christ is an overcomer. The LC was wrong to divide the true body of Christ into overcomers and non-overcomers. It is so very plain in scripture. How could they get this small detail so wrong? It definitely makes the rest of their theology suspect, at the least.

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

One example, though I don't know him personally, is Dr. Bart Ehrman, an accomplished Bible professor, and a self-described atheist. Did he not once have faith? He also used to preach the gospel. Did he not reject both his faith and His Savior? He is no longer a believer, neither is he an "overcomer."

So this is an example of one who once was a believer but who can not be an overcomer. The Galatians are others. They too were "bewitched." (Gal 3.1)

Raptor · 07-31-2019, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.)

There are too many warnings.....

Lk. 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words, of this one will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

byHismercy · 07-31-2019, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

One example, though I don't know him personally, is Dr. Bart Ehrman, an accomplished Bible professor, and a self-described atheist. Did he not once have faith? He also used to preach the gospel. Did he not reject both his faith and His Savior? He is no longer a believer, neither is he an "overcomer."

So this is an example of one who once was a believer but who can not be an overcomer. The Galatians are others. They too were "bewitched." (Gal 3.1)

Ohio, it seems impossible to have met Christ, know His life, then later deny Him. But I agree that it must be possible. We all have free will, and our own choice to make. But if Ehrman does now deny Christ, he would be going to hell, not 1,000 years of outer darkness, I would think.

Jo S · 07-31-2019, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

it seems impossible to have met Christ, know His life, then later deny Him.

If you only knew of him, it's not impossible but if you truly know him it is impossible to be plucked from his hand.

Raptor · 07-31-2019, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you only knew of him, it's not impossible but if you truly know him it is impossible to be plucked from his hand.

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand". No one can pluck them out of His hand so as to perish. They will never perish, once saved, eternally saved, no plucking.

But a saved person can receive a reward or suffer loss: 1 Cor. 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds upon the foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it is revealed in fire, and the fire itself will prove the work of each, what sort it is. If the work of anyone that he built up will remain, he will receive a reward. If the work of anyone will be burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire."

ZNPaaneah · 07-31-2019, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand". No one can pluck them out of His hand so as to perish. They will never perish, once saved, eternally saved, no plucking.

Then how do you explain that the nations, to whom He has not given eternal life, live eternally? see post 16 for you and 18 for Ohio.

Raptor · 07-31-2019, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Then how do you explain that the nations, to whom He has not given eternal life, live eternally? see post 16 for you and 18 for Ohio.

Eternal life and live eternally are not synonyms. Eternal life is the life of God. Live eternally is to live forever.

Ohio made a good point. All human beings will exist forever. Some will have the life of God, the eternal life, the sons of God in the NJ. Some will only have the restored human life, and live forever as the nations around the NJ, and some will exist eternally in the lake of fire, the unbelievers.

ZNPaaneah · 07-31-2019, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Eternal life and live eternally are not synonyms. Eternal life is the life of God. Live eternally is to live forever.

Ohio made a good point. All human beings will exist forever. Some will have the life of God, the eternal life, the sons of God in the NJ. Some will only have the restored human life, and live forever as the nations around the NJ, and some will exist eternally in the lake of fire, the unbelievers.

But does it say they'll live forever or for eternity? What happens when "time is no more"?

Ohio · 07-31-2019, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Eternal life and live eternally are not synonyms. Eternal life is the life of God. Live eternally is to live forever.

Ohio made a good point. All human beings will exist forever. Some will have the life of God, the eternal life, the sons of God in the NJ. Some will only have the restored human life, and live forever as the nations around the NJ, and some will exist eternally in the lake of fire, the unbelievers.

These teachings are not Brethren, but from Robert Govett and David Panton, Surrey Chapel, Norwich, England. Margaret Barber was a member of this church and taught Nee these views of Eschatology.

byHismercy · 07-31-2019, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you only knew of him, it's not impossible but if you truly know him it is impossible to be plucked from his hand.

Jo, the kind of person you speak of I never thought of as a believer. I would have classified that one as a nominal Christian, or a tare. I have a loved one, a close relative, who claims to be a Christian, but when we discuss receiving the Holy Spirit, she claims Lutherans don't believe in that. We sometimes go round and round this aspect and whatever verses she disputes she cannot or will not even read aloud. Finally in exasperation one year she said it is her choice. That I felt was the first time she had been honest on the subject. You cannot reject receiving the Holy Spirit, reject the scriptural being born again, and be a saved, regenerated Christian. You can, however, deceive yourself into thinking you are a Christian.

Jo S · 07-31-2019, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You can, however, deceive yourself into thinking you are a Christian.

Absolutely. However it's easy to deceive yourself when, for instance, the Catholics give you a certificate at 1 yrs old stating you are saved at water baptism or in the Local Churches you are told to disregard teachings on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and just to "call on the Lord". But ultimately accountability falls on you.

Ohio · 07-31-2019, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You can, however, deceive yourself into thinking you are a Christian.

I guess my question is -- can you deceive yourself into believing you are Not a Christian?

byHismercy · 07-31-2019, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I guess my question is -- can you deceive yourself into believing you are Not a Christian?

I don't see how. We who believe have the Holy Spirit witnessing Christ in our spirit. How can you 'unknow' someone you know? (This doesn't apply to LCers. They were perfectly able,to 'unknow' me after 10 or so years of 'friendship', lol).

I would argue that someone who lost their faith never actually received the Holy Spirit in the first place. What do you think, Ohio?

Ohio · 07-31-2019, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I don't see how. We who believe have the Holy Spirit witnessing Christ in our spirit. How can you 'unknow' someone you know? (This doesn't apply to LCers. They were perfectly able,to 'unknow' me after 10 or so years of 'friendship', lol).

I would argue that someone who lost their faith never actually received the Holy Spirit in the first place. What do you think, Ohio?

I think it has happened to many. I have met a couple. I mentioned that famous Bible "scholar."

The Bible says to "hold faith and a good conscience, which some thrusting away have become shipwrecked regarding their faith." (I Tim 1.19) Then Paul mentions two brothers by name, whom he delivered to Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme.

Even in the 1st century, some real brothers had lost their faith. They became blasphemers. (I Tim 1.20) Like the fornicator in I Cor 5.5, Paul delivered these ones to Satan.

Ohio · 07-31-2019, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, it seems impossible to have met Christ, know His life, then later deny Him. But I agree that it must be possible. We all have free will, and our own choice to make. But if Ehrman does now deny Christ, he would be going to hell, not 1,000 years of outer darkness, I would think.

Ehrman has stumbled many who have sought God, reminding me of Matt 23.13.

But it brings up another question I struggle with -- are we saved by an active faith or by past regeneration? Which indicates we can lose our salvation.

ZNPaaneah · 07-31-2019, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ehrman has stumbled many who have sought God, reminding me of Matt 23.13.

But it brings up another question I struggle with -- are we saved by an active faith or by past regeneration? Which indicates we can lose our salvation.

How could you have an active faith if you didn't have a past regeneration? Receiving Christ for the first time is the first step. That is something you cannot lose regardless of what happens next. In that sense "once saved always saved". But if one small act of faith saves you, then so does every subsequent act of faith.

Jo S · 07-31-2019, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How could you have an active faith if you didn't have a past regeneration? Receiving Christ for the first time is the first step. That is something you cannot lose regardless of what happens next. In that sense "once saved always saved". But if one small act of faith saves you, then so does every subsequent act of faith.

This depends on what you mean by "receiving Christ".

Do you mean receiving the word in joy?

Or do you mean receiving him as in being baptized by the Holy Spirit?

The former you can lose (Matthew 13:18-22), the latter you cannot.

Ohio · 07-31-2019, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo S

This depends on what you mean by "receiving Christ".

Do you mean receiving the word in joy?

Or do you mean receiving him as in being baptized by the Holy Spirit?

The former you can lose (Matthew 13:18-22), the latter you cannot.

Who gets to determine who is baptized in the Holy Spirit?

At Pentecost ALL the disciples were.

Jo S · 07-31-2019, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who gets to determine who is baptized in the Holy Spirit?

At Pentecost ALL the disciples were.

In the case of Pentecost, it was Jesus that determined it ahead of time (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4)

Ohio · 07-31-2019, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How could you have an active faith if you didn't have a past regeneration? Receiving Christ for the first time is the first step. That is something you cannot lose regardless of what happens next. In that sense "once saved always saved". But if one small act of faith saves you, then so does every subsequent act of faith.

Perhaps I misstated my question -- what happens when someone (like Ehrman) has a past regeneration, to the point where they are actively preaching the Gospel to others, and decides to study theology at a major university, and yet have your active faith stolen from you via so-called scholarly doubts concerning the text of the N.T.?

It's a question which supports the Arminian school of thought.

Raptor · 07-31-2019, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps I misstated my question -- what happens when someone (like Ehrman) has a past regeneration, to the point where they are actively preaching the Gospel to others, and decides to study theology at a major university, and yet have your active faith stolen from you via so-called scholarly doubts concerning the text of the N.T.?

He is like a baby, who is born of Mr. Johnson. He is Mr. Johnson's baby, that's a fact, and that will never cease to be a fact, he is Johnson's son, it´s biological, it´s genetics, it's a law of life. The baby grows into a child and loves his dad, and says great things and proclaims good news about his dad to others at school.

Yet the child is still very young and is kidnapped by these scholarly gangsters, and grows up with them at a major university full of ideas and is so busy and deceived that he forgets about his dad and all dad´s great things.

Now he is a young boy and then a teenager, and one day he runs into a childhood friend that asks him, ...hey what happened to your great dad? And he answers, who? I don´t know what you are talking about. And then now he is an adult and one day runs into his dad on the street and though Johnson sees him and lunges to greet him, sobbing, full of love and expectation....his son does not recognize him and passes by to the other side.

Then one day Johnson dies. In his will he recognizes he has a son, but does not leave him an inheritance, because he never knew him.