1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Can you clarify, Raptor?

The matter of "being absent from the body and present with the Lord" refers to being dead, to dead believers. The Bible says little about what happens to dead believers, except that they go to be in the Lord´s presence, or to Paradise, or that they are sleeping.

The matter of receiving a reward or discipline refers to live believers, either resurrected and/or raptured, that are judged at the judgment seat of Christ. The Bible says a lot about all of this.

[RambleOn]

I have decided that I cannot comment intelligently about whether this or any teaching of the LCs is accurate or Biblical, but I can confirm for you concretely that this is what they teach and believe:

*Those who believe into the Lord are saved once for all. You cannot under any circumstances lose your salvation, because having believed you have received the divine life, and having received the life of God the Father, you are legally entitled to his inheritance.

*Baptism is necessary to have a proper walk with the Lord after being saved.

*There will be a 1000 year wedding feast at the end of the age, which will be for the Lord and the first fruits, the overcomers. The rest of the believers will suffer in outer darkness for 1000 years and will engage in much weeping and teeth gnashing.

*After the wedding feast, the New Heaven and New Earth will be established, along with the New Jerusalem. All the believers across time will reign as kings with Christ. The jews get to be priests.

It has never been quite clear who the rest of the kingdom will comprise, however. I find it odd that there would be a kingdom with apparently billions of kings, and also millions upon millions of priests, but no mention of any citizens of the kingdom. Some clarification on that would be helpful. CS Lewis apparently thought, if you take his Narnia books to be any indication of his eschatology, that Muslims and people of other faiths would be accepted into the kingdom as well, though perhaps not as actual kings. Maybe the Ishmaelites get to partake of Abraham's blessing after all. It is all very confusing to me, but like I said, I have trouble speaking intelligently about most of these controversies.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

I have decided that I cannot comment intelligently about whether this or any teaching of the LCs is accurate or Biblical, but I can confirm for you concretely that this is what they teach and believe: .

*Those who believe into the Lord are saved once for all. You cannot under any circumstances lose your salvation, because having believed you have received the divine life, and having received the life of God the Father YES

you are legally entitled to his inheritance. Not exactly, we are not legally entitled to the part of our inheritance, the Kingdom of God, which is during the millennial Kingdom. That aspect of the inheritance is based on reward. We are legally entitled to our inheritance in the New Jerusalem, like you mention down below. But to inherit the Kingdom of God in the millennial is based on reward. Not trying to split hairs here, but there are verses that exactly say this, i.e. "....those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9, Gal. 5:21).

*There will be a 1000 year wedding feast at the end of the age, which will be for the Lord and the first fruits, the overcomers. YES, but "the first fruits" are just one of the categories of overcomers, there are other categories of overcomers too.

*After the wedding feast, the New Heaven and New Earth will be established, along with the New Jerusalem. All the believers across time will reign as kings with Christ. YES, but all believers will be kings and priests in the New Jerusalem.

The jews get to be priests. , the Jews that believe in the Lord at His coming are priests on the earth during the millennial Kingdom. After the millennial, they join all the other believers, to be priests and kings for eternity.

It has never been quite clear who the rest of the kingdom will comprise, however. I find it odd that there would be a kingdom with apparently billions of kings (queens too? i don't know, NO, never any mention of queens, no), and also millions upon millions of priests, but no mention of any citizens of the kingdom. Yes, it has been made clear in the teaching. During the Great Tribulation, a different gospel is preached, it is called the Eternal Gospel. This gospel is initially preached by an angel that flies around the earth warning people to fear God and worship Him (Rev. 14:6,7). In addition there are also good works that people, nations, can perform during the great tribulation, mainly, helping other christians. The nations that obey that eternal gospel and those that help christians will receive a reward from the Lord. These are the ones that are counted as sheep, separated from the goats at the Lord´s coming (Matt. 25:32). The reward is that they will be the citizens of the kingdom. They do not get regenerated, they do not receive the divine life, but they get restored to be like Adam and Eve before the fall and get to live eternally as the nations during the millenium and during the New Jerusalem.

[RambleOn]

Raptor, thanks for clearing that up for me. I took the queens part out after posting, but you beat me to it. Anyway, the rest of it sounds familiar, but it has been a long while since I read through, and I am clearly losing my grip on the details. I should have just kept it simple, but as usual I got myself in trouble talking too much! Rambling on, if you will.

It's too late now, but what I should have said was "I have decided I cannot comment intelligently, but that has never stopped me before so here goes."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

It has never been quite clear who the rest of the kingdom will comprise, however. I find it odd that there would be a kingdom with apparently billions of kings, and also millions upon millions of priests, but no mention of any citizens of the kingdom. Some clarification on that would be helpful. CS Lewis apparently thought, if you take his Narnia books to be any indication of his eschatology, that Muslims and people of other faiths would be accepted into the kingdom as well, though perhaps not as actual kings. Maybe the Ishmaelites get to partake of Abraham's blessing after all. It is all very confusing to me, but like I said, I have trouble speaking intelligently about most of these controversies.

They teach that the nations which were the "sheep" will be on Earth. So Christians rule and reign with Christ, Jews are priests to God, and the nations walk in the light. The part that isn't clear is how long each of these lives. Obviously Christians are clearly said to rule and reign with Christ for eternity. But how long the Jews and Gentiles live is hard to figure out.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They teach that the nations which were the "sheep" will be on Earth. So Christians rule and reign with Christ, Jews are priests to God, and the nations walk in the light. The part that isn't clear is how long each of these lives. Obviously Christians are clearly said to rule and reign with Christ for eternity. But how long the Jews and Gentiles live is hard to figure out.

They all live eternally. The saved Jews are the earthly priests during the millenium, and after, they join all other christians to be part of the New Jerusalem, all as sons of God. Revelation 21:12 indicates that the 12 tribes are now part of the NJ, "It had a great and high wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel."

The nations live eternally with restored, perfect, sinless bodies. There is no more death! Revelation 21:4, "And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away."

And the leaves of the tree of life heal the nations, Revelation 22:2 "And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."

At the end of the millenium, everything changes. There is a new heaven and a new earth and we enter into eternity as the New Jerusalem comprising all of God´s perfected people and around it the restored nations.

[byHismercy]

Ok, this is all very interesting. Thank you all for contributing to this conversation. What it brings up for me is another point, related to this subject, wherein I disagree with LC doctrine. In the LC, believers were divided into at least two categories, overcomes and those who have not overcome. This is another doctrine which directly contradicts scripture, though.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. Vs. 5 Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This verse tells me that I and every born again believer of Christ is an overcomer. The LC was wrong to divide the true body of Christ into overcomers and non-overcomers. It is so very plain in scripture. How could they get this small detail so wrong? It definitely makes the rest of their theology suspect, at the least.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ok, this is all very interesting. Thank you all for contributing to this conversation. What it brings up for me is another point, related to this subject, wherein I disagree with LC doctrine. In the LC, believers were divided into at least two categories, overcomes and those who have not overcome. This is another doctrine which directly contradicts scripture, though.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. Vs. 5 Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This verse tells me that I and every born again believer of Christ is an overcomer. The LC was wrong to divide the true body of Christ into overcomers and non-overcomers. It is so very plain in scripture. How could they get this small detail so wrong? It definitely makes the rest of their theology suspect, at the least.

Well, the scriptures plainly talk about overcomers in Revelation 2 and 3. Several times, "to him who overcomes". That means there are those who may "not overcome". So it's really the scriptures that describe two categories. The same thought is present in many other portions without the specific use of the word "overcomer".

But to your point: YES! there is the overcoming of the world, our faith, our believing in the Son of God! Yes, that is a victory, but it is just the initial one, and not the only one. The use of the word "overcomes" here does not negate the use of "overcome" in other contexts, and concerning other requirements. It's one thing to overcome unbelief and the world and believe in the Son of God, but another to overcome lukewarmness, Jezebel, Nicolaitans, lost of first love, deadness, etc, etc.

Yes, biology and family teaches us this also. We were all sperm one day, and we all overcame the race against all other sperm and reached the egg successfully, ....., we overcame the world of sperm and got their first, we believed and we were born!

But now we have to grow, and mature, and run the human race, and keep all of dad´s requirements to the end, and overcome all the other obstacles, then we might receive the reward of dad´s inheritance.

The first overcome does not negate the second.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes, biology and family teaches us this also. We were all sperm one day, and we all overcame the race against all other sperm and reached the egg successfully, ....., we overcame the world of sperm and got their first, we believed and we were born!

Wow. This exposition may be the first ever of its kind!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Well, the scriptures plainly talk about overcomers in Revelation 2 and 3. Several times, "to him who overcomes". That means there are those who may "not overcome".

There are two types of sincere believer's in Christ; Apollos and Paul.

Paul knew the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Apollos only knew of John's baptism (Acts 18:25)

Jesus is calling those whom have not received the promise of the Holy Spirit in faith to overcome by faith. It's a daily battle for every believer in Christ.

God's children already born of His spirit cannot fall away as there is nothing that will snatch us out of His hand (Jn 10:28).

So yes, some can loose faith and fall away (2 Thess 2:3) into outer darkness and then there are those already sealed with the deposit of the spirit that guarantees eternal life. (Eph 1:13)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Well, the scriptures plainly talk about overcomers in Revelation 2 and 3. Several times, "to him who overcomes". That means there are those who may "not overcome". So it's really the scriptures that describe two categories. The same thought is present in many other portions without the specific use of the word "overcomer".

But to your point: YES! there is the overcoming of the world, our faith, our believing in the Son of God! Yes, that is a victory, but it is just the initial one, and not the only one. The use of the word "overcomes" here does not negate the use of "overcome" in other contexts, and concerning other requirements. It's one thing to overcome unbelief and the world and believe in the Son of God, but another to overcome lukewarmness, Jezebel, Nicolaitans, lost of first love, deadness, etc, etc.

Yes, biology and family teaches us this also. We were all sperm one day, and we all overcame the race against all other sperm and reached the egg successfully, ....., we overcame the world of sperm and got their first, we believed and we were born!

But now we have to grow, and mature, and run the human race, and keep all of dad´s requirements to the end, and overcome all the other obstacles, then we might receive the reward of dad´s inheritance.

The first overcome does not negate the second.

I will have to reread Rev. 3 and 3, Raptor. The one thing I am glad of is that Almighty God knows. I am glad He searches the hearts of men, and He knows the tares from His harvest of saints.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ok, this is all very interesting. Thank you all for contributing to this conversation. What it brings up for me is another point, related to this subject, wherein I disagree with LC doctrine. In the LC, believers were divided into at least two categories, overcomes and those who have not overcome. This is another doctrine which directly contradicts scripture, though.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. Vs. 5 Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This verse tells me that I and every born again believer of Christ is an overcomer. The LC was wrong to divide the true body of Christ into overcomers and non-overcomers. It is so very plain in scripture. How could they get this small detail so wrong? It definitely makes the rest of their theology suspect, at the least.

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

One example, though I don't know him personally, is Dr. Bart Ehrman, an accomplished Bible professor, and a self-described atheist. Did he not once have faith? He also used to preach the gospel. Did he not reject both his faith and His Savior? He is no longer a believer, neither is he an "overcomer."

So this is an example of one who once was a believer but who can not be an overcomer. The Galatians are others. They too were "bewitched." (Gal 3.1)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.)

There are too many warnings.....

Lk. 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words, of this one will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

One example, though I don't know him personally, is Dr. Bart Ehrman, an accomplished Bible professor, and a self-described atheist. Did he not once have faith? He also used to preach the gospel. Did he not reject both his faith and His Savior? He is no longer a believer, neither is he an "overcomer."

So this is an example of one who once was a believer but who can not be an overcomer. The Galatians are others. They too were "bewitched." (Gal 3.1)

Ohio, it seems impossible to have met Christ, know His life, then later deny Him. But I agree that it must be possible. We all have free will, and our own choice to make. But if Ehrman does now deny Christ, he would be going to hell, not 1,000 years of outer darkness, I would think.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

They all live eternally.

I agree.

It is now my belief that ALL those once conceived, whether aborted or not, whether stillborn or they died before they ever sinned, whether believing or not, whether Jews or not, whether Christian or not, whether alive or dead, will live eternally.

That does not mean they will all have God's eternal life, or that some will not perish in fire. We may have vastly different destinies in eternity, but who we are will never cease to exist.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The matter of "being absent from the body and present with the Lord" refers to being dead, to dead believers. The Bible says little about what happens to dead believers, except that they go to be in the Lord´s presence, or to Paradise, or that they are sleeping.

The matter of receiving a reward or discipline refers to live believers, either resurrected and/or raptured, that are judged at the judgment seat of Christ. The Bible says a lot about all of this.

What?! Every believer whether they have died prior to the Lord's return or not will be caught up to the judgment seat of Christ where they will either receive a reward or discipline.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What?! Every believer whether they have died prior to the Lord's return or not will be caught up to the judgment seat of Christ where they will either receive a reward or discipline.

Yes, exactly. So when they are caught up and are at the judgment seat of Christ, are they alive or dead? They are alive, they have been resurrected. They are no longer sleeping or absent from the body.

byHisMercy had said "My position is that I don't believe some believers are present with the Lord at the time they leave their bodies whilst some are placed in 1,000 years of outer darkness"

What I am saying is that when believers die, and while they are dead, they have not been judged yet at the JSoC. So there cannot be some dead believers present with the Lord and other dead believers in outer darkness for 1,ooo years. At the Lord´s return all dead believers are resurrected and caught up to the JSoC, and all live believers are caught up to the JSoC. All believers at the JSoC will be alive.