Intro of an ex "Church Kid"

[aron]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it..

First, an observation - noting the recent spate of ones posting here & on FB who have gone thru 2 years of FTT and rejected God afterward.

A few related comments follow: the best thing the regulars on a Christian forum like this can do is resist the urge to say, "You poor thing - you threw out the good (Christ) with the bad (LR)". No, resist the urge to correct their course back to Christian ground. Their current ground may be as valid to them today as yours is to you. Receive them as a messenger from God - they did what they had to, to shake off an oppressive yoke. Amen.

Instead, ask yourself a question: is the LR really that bad, and that mentally pervasive, that one must reject Christianity in toto to get the voice of Lee out of their head? Perhaps that's what they're telling us here, at least in part.

And this may lead to a solution of sorts. Instead of pointing them back to the safe harbour of our treasured concepts, we can have a discussion of mutual discovery where we learn from them, and each other, and the Word, and they may be inspired to learn from us.

Let me give 4 examples, all of whom I've raised here before.

1. What if 'ekklesia' didn't mean 'church' in the NT Greek but rather meant 'assembly' or 'meeting'. ~Acts 19:41 "And with these words he dismissed the 'ekklesia' ".

2. What if 'God's economy' meant something entirely different from what Lee said it did? What if it meant something more like (re)distribution of material possessions, guided by faith? "To give is better than to receive" and "he with abundance had no extras, and him that lacked had no hunger"?

3. Related to (2), notice how Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21 and 22 both have the 'nations' streaming to the Holy Mountain with their riches/gifts? If the NJ is the [gentile] 'church' in glory, then who are the nations walking in its light? Who are the 'kings of the earth' bringing in their glory? (Rev 21:24; cf Isa 60:3,5). Lee said, "These are non-Christians/unbelievers" and I ask if that makes any sense at all?

4. What if the 4th gospel's repeated references to the 'Ioudeans' should be translated "Judeans" and not "Jews"? Jesus and John and Peter were Galileans and they were opposed, as such, by the Judeans. See e.g., Matt 26:69; Luke 23:6. But both parties were Jews.. get it?

In all this I'm not pointing to 'truths' per se but avenues for exploration. Anyone can do it. There are myriads of avenues in scripture waiting... if our readers see us in such explorations, some may be encouraged to do so as well. Are we going to spend the rest of our lives talking about others' failures (and our participation therein) or are we going to go forward? On such matters the question of the 'gospel' hinges.

(The above 4 questions were not meant to undergird some larger discussion- one could pick any of 40 or even 400 different questions. My point was, Anyone can do this. It's an invitation - "seek, and ye shall find..")

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by aron

First, an observation - noting the recent spate of ones posting here & on FB who have gone thru 2 years of FTT and rejected God afterward.

Instead, ask yourself a question: is the LR really that bad, and that mentally pervasive, that one must reject Christianity in toto to get the voice of Lee out of their head? Perhaps that's what they're telling us here, at least in part.)

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

[HERn]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

You could check out Bible Hub or other online resources. They have many versions and other resources online, even a way to go to the original Greek or Hebrew word for study. I really like reading different versions of the NT, but for me they must be without footnotes. Right now I'm reading the Williams NT. The reason I like different versions is because it helps me not to gloss over the words when I read a version I've read for years. Sometimes I found myself realizing I had read a whole paragraph while thinking of something else. When I read a different version my mind pays more attention and I'm more likely to talk or complain to the Lord about what I read. But, that might just be my quirk. I read for enjoyment. There is another book I read called "The Book of God" by Walter Wangerin. It's not really a translation, but a retelling of the bible focusing on the characters. It's probably not something you read for doctrine, but it really drew me into the lives of Abraham and Sarah. Abraham had God's promise, but he had to wait for something like 50 years! Can you imagine Sarai's shock when Abram said God told me to take the family to a land I don't even know how to get to? Can you imagine the conversations those two must have had? Eventually God changed their names to Sarah and Abraham, and even though they had God's promise Sarah says to Abraham I'm never going to have a child so take my servant girl Hagar and make us an heir. Sometime later Sarah chastised Abraham for the very thing she encouraged. In spite of this the Lord blessed them. We all have a human story in our journey with the Lord, for me it's really fun to understand that others before me had to learn to live with God's unfulfilled promises. Anyway, that's just how I roll.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I think this is an astute observation.

How are you supposed to feel love and understanding by your heavenly Father when your own father prioritizes the meetings over you?

How are you supposed to have a relationship with a God that is good when you are told He will arrange for a mac truck to hit you if you backslide (i.e. be a human being)?

How are you supposed to want to approach a God who you are told doesn't want you to enjoy having hobbies and do anything other than sit in a room and "receive the dispensing"?

How are you supposed to want to talk to a God who gave you musical talent only to be told you cannot express it on anything other than a tiny boring subset of Lee-related music that brings you to tears in its mind-numbing dullness?

How can you feel comfortable coming to a God and telling Him the desires of your heart if you are told He can't stand to be around you unless you are covered in Christ?

How are you supposed to want to read the word and use your God-given faculties in having a sober mind to discern His speaking and your own situations when you are told to get out of your mind and that your mind = death?

I could go on but I just get mad.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

I have a different Bible version by my bed now but it is still hard for me to want to reach for it. So many years of it being a dry book full of meaningless footnote explanations has made it currently difficult for me to read. When I do read it, though, as HERn said the different version really helps me pay attention to what is actually being said. If you get the inclination again to buy a Bible I do recommend it. At least you will then have it immediately available when you want to read it.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

I completely relate. That care and love for the individual is absent in the LC. That kind of love and recognition we all long for. You come to be in a place where you are devalued. But you have to know that Father God values you so highly.....so highly His Son was our sacrifice.....the god of the LC is a complete misrepresentation being fed to all its' members....a different christ of a different gospel. Don't let it keep you from coming to the real Jesus, whose love is proven in the fact of His laying down His own life.

On a side note, I really like the KJVER. That's the king James version easy reader....you might also check out pastor Gene Kim and see his videos on why they stick to KJV exclusively. Pretty shocking how modern versions are stripping 'the Lord' out of the word. And other proof texts of Jesus divinity. Also the verses about the three witnesses on earth and the three witnesses in heaven....these verses present a picture of our 3in1 God, and most modern translations leave out a whole verse.....it's taking away, from what God ordered not be tampered with. May the true Christ draw you, restore you, love you and care for your humanity! Be blessed!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

On a side note, I really like the KJVER. That's the king James version easy reader....you might also check out pastor Gene Kim and see his videos on why they stick to KJV exclusively. Pretty shocking how modern versions are stripping 'the Lord' out of the word. And other proof texts of Jesus divinity. Also the verses about the three witnesses on earth and the three witnesses in heaven....these verses present a picture of our 3in1 God, and most modern translations leave out a whole verse.....it's taking away, from what God ordered not be tampered with.

ByHisMercy, you really should examine both sides of this debate before you accept KJV exclusivity. I have confronted this debate for decades, and it pains me how much bad information about the Textus Receptus is used to create modern day superstitions.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ByHisMercy, you really should examine both sides of this debate before you accept KJV exclusivity. I have confronted this debate for decades, and it pains me how much bad information about the Textus Receptus is used to create modern day superstitions.

You are right to say I have only looked at one side of the debate. I took each version I had on my shelves and compared probably 15 or 20 verses against the KJV. I was really shocked at the differences, and what they did to alter the word.

The other side for me, was a testimony I saw and heard from a catholic-raised lady. She had an encounter with Jesus that converted her. Part of that story was her relating how one of her excuses to the Lord for her unbelief was the alteration of the word, the differences in translations, and her distrust of His word in these modern records. He told her it was His responsibility to uphold His truth. His word will not return to Him void! So I believe into His promise, and His ability to feed the milk and meat of the word where He intends it to go.

But after comparing the NKJV, NASB, ESV, (don't even get me started on the NIV, the Message bible) verse by verse to the KJV, I was convinced enough to get rid of all my other versions. I would be surprised to see my opinion change, however, that being said, I am open to learning more and looking at both sides, especially considering your remarks. I am sorry this grieves you, brother. What do you think about opening a separate thread on this subject, here? Or is there one already?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You are right to say I have only looked at one side of the debate. I took each version I had on my shelves and compared probably 15 or 20 verses against the KJV. I was really shocked at the differences, and what they did to alter the word.

The other side for me, was a testimony I saw and heard from a catholic-raised lady. She had an encounter with Jesus that converted her. Part of that story was her relating how one of her excuses to the Lord for her unbelief was the alteration of the word, the differences in translations, and her distrust of His word in these modern records. He told her it was His responsibility to uphold His truth. His word will not return to Him void! So I believe into His promise, and His ability to feed the milk and meat of the word where He intends it to go.

But after comparing the NKJV, NASB, ESV, (don't even get me started on the NIV, the Message bible) verse by verse to the KJV, I was convinced enough to get rid of all my other versions. I would be surprised to see my opinion change, however, that being said, I am open to learning more and looking at both sides, especially considering your remarks. I am sorry this grieves you, brother. What do you think about opening a separate thread on this subject, here? Or is there one already?

ByHisMercy, the KJV in not the biblical standard by which you should compare other versions. Let me discuss a little of its history. On the one hand, King James assembled the best scholars of his day, the era of classical Shakesperean English. On the other hand, King James himself determined that his version would forever be the official "Authorized" English version. It was a work dedicated to the king in order to exalt the king of England for all time. Since the kings of England were the head of the church of England, they could outlaw other translations, which they did until the late 19th century. Let me quote some of the original introduction to the KJV:

To the most high and mightie Prince, James by the grace of God King of Great Britaine, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, &c. The translators of The Bible, wish Grace, Mercie, and Peace, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
reat and manifold were the blessings (most dread Soveraigne) which Almighty GOD, the Father of all Mercies, bestowed upon us the people of ENGLAND, when first he sent your Majesties Royall person to rule and raigne over us. For whereas it was the expectation of many, who wished not well unto our ZION, that upon the setting of that bright Occidentall Starre Queene ELIZABETH of most happy memory, some thicke and palpable cloudes of darkenesse would so have overshadowed this land, that men should have bene in doubt which way they were to walke, and that it should hardly be knowen, who was to direct the unsetled State: the appearance of your MAJESTIE, as of the Sunne in his strength, instantly dispelled those supposed and surmised mists, and gave unto all that were well affected, exceeding cause of comfort; especially when we beheld the government established in your HIGHNESSE, and your hopefull Seed, by an undoubted Title, and this also accompanied with Peace and tranquillitie, at home and abroad.

I have always found the ego and exaltation of King James to be a little sickening personally.

Thus, all translations of God's word should not be compared to the KJV, but to the best Greek Manuscript which scholarly Textural Critiques have provided, in lieu of the original autographs by the writers of the N.T. Concerning the N.T., God wrote in Greek. So every Bible Version we have in English is at best a translation from the Greek. Jesus Himself authorized translations of His word since He actually quote from the Greek Septuagint, and not from the Hebrew Scriptures.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ByHisMercy
I have always found the ego and exaltation of King James to be a little sickening personally.

Me too, Ohio. I always rip that dedication page out. The holy word belongs to God first, then was gifted to every person by Him. It is for us all, and His testimony to us.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You are right to say I have only looked at one side of the debate. I took each version I had on my shelves and compared probably 15 or 20 verses against the KJV. I was really shocked at the differences, and what they did to alter the word.

The other side for me, was a testimony I saw and heard from a catholic-raised lady. She had an encounter with Jesus that converted her. Part of that story was her relating how one of her excuses to the Lord for her unbelief was the alteration of the word, the differences in translations, and her distrust of His word in these modern records. He told her it was His responsibility to uphold His truth. His word will not return to Him void! So I believe into His promise, and His ability to feed the milk and meat of the word where He intends it to go.

But after comparing the NKJV, NASB, ESV, (don't even get me started on the NIV, the Message bible) verse by verse to the KJV, I was convinced enough to get rid of all my other versions. I would be surprised to see my opinion change, however, that being said, I am open to learning more and looking at both sides, especially considering your remarks. I am sorry this grieves you, brother. What do you think about opening a separate thread on this subject, here? Or is there one already?

According to Paul :

KJV : "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life
ESV : "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
NET : "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Strong's :
- kill:
ἀποκτείνω
apokteinō
ap-ok-ti'-no
From G575 and κτείνω kteinō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively to destroy: - put to death, kill, slay.

- spirit :
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

- life :
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

According to Paul :

KJV : "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life
ESV : "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
NET : "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Strong's :
- kill:
ἀποκτείνω
apokteinō
ap-ok-ti'-no
From G575 and κτείνω kteinō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively to destroy: - put to death, kill, slay.

- spirit :
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

- life :
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

I have experienced the Lord as breath, breeze....physically. Once upon a time, He came to me when I needed a friend, needed a Father. When I was a little child, down on my knees, asking for Him. There is no God other than God the Father of Jesus!!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

Have you seen https://biblehub.com/

You have 27 versions available. You can do all kinds of stuff, for example access one of the versions, or you can look up one verse, and get all 27 versions displaying that verse in a list. Plus greek and other tools.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

I’m glad you are healing from LC violation. While I wasn’t raised in LC (I was entrapped at age 17), one of the reasons I left was I wanted no part of forcing LC religion on young people or entrapping others, as it violates principles of the gospel being offered freely and not forcing a response.

I’m also glad this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking. Jesus really is amazing, and worthy of all praise, honor, and blessing.

These days purchasing a paper Bible is not necessarily needed as free on-line Bibles can be used with computer, tablet, and smart phone with internet connection or download. I use Bible Hub, Bible Gateway, and Blue Letter Bibles for different purposes. Just put each name into a search engine and viola, pick each one and try them out).... all major and many minor translations are there, individually or side by side in parallel mode). I like the literal translations like Berean’s and Young’s as well as Strong’s NASB in Bible Hub. Lot’s of tools including Greek and Hebrew text and commentaries are included. Bible Gateway has audio mode for some versions, which I like for quick reading.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

These days purchasing a paper Bible is not necessarily needed as free on-line Bibles can be used with computer, tablet, and smart phone with internet connection or download. I use Bible Hub, Bible Gateway, and Blue Letter Bibles for different purposes. Just put each name into a search engine and viola, pick each one and try them out).... all major and many minor translations are there, individually or side by side in parallel mode). I like the literal translations like Berean’s and Young’s as well as Strong’s NASB in Bible Hub. Lot’s of tools including Greek and Hebrew text and commentaries are included. Bible Gateway has audio mode for some versions, which I like for quick reading.

I'll see you and I'll raise you one. Not only is the Bible freely available in various forms but the surrounding literature as well. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls open up a window to the messianic expectations of a separatist sect called the Essenes. When John the Baptist came out of the desert preaching repentance, he greeted the religious ones coming from Jerusalem with epithets. Clearly there's a back story here.

Witness Lee famously told us that he hadn't learned anything from anyone for 45 years. For those coming out of the LC/LR, there's some catching up to do!

Of course there are a lot of flakes out there, a lot of proverbial chaff. But with the internet one can sort through things fairly quickly. We have resources available that were undreamed of 30 years ago.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I'll see you and I'll raise you one. Not only is the Bible freely available in various forms but the surrounding literature as well. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls open up a window to the messianic expectations of a separatist sect called the Essenes. When John the Baptist came out of the desert preaching repentance, he greeted the religious ones coming from Jerusalem with epithets. Clearly there's a back story here.

Witness Lee famously told us that he hadn't learned anything from anyone for 45 years. For those coming out of the LC/LR, there's some catching up to do!

Of course there are a lot of flakes out there, a lot of proverbial chaff. But with the internet one can sort through things fairly quickly. We have resources available that were undreamed of 30 years ago.

Anyway, those growing up in the LC have a ton of catching up to do. They followed only one voice, Lee's. That leaves 'em incredibly short on christian matters.

Google and Wikipedia are just starting off points. And so is the opening up of their minds. After growing up with closed minds, that ain't easy.

May the Lord of all knowledge be with them. And thanks to Him for the abundance of the internet. We wouldn't be here without it.

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by awareness

Anyway, those growing up in the LC have a ton of catching up to do. They followed only one voice, Lee's. That leaves 'em incredibly short on christian matters.
Google and Wikipedia are just starting off points. And so is the opening up of their minds. After growing up with closed minds, that ain't easy.
May the Lord of all knowledge be with them. And thanks to Him for the abundance of the internet. We wouldn't be here without it.

This is quite arrogant, yes? I would argue that - yes, while there is quite a bit of Lee in our upbringing you are talking about a lifetime of Bible reading, verse memorization, etc. The RV wasn't out our whole lives...we've read other Bibles, too... and further... those of us who have made the choice to leave no doubt have spent countless hours comparing translations and what is offered by other denominations etc to see what else is out there. We just aren't puffed up about it (only some offense intended). Also LOL at growing up with closed minds. Have you actually observed the cross-section of "Church Kids" out there? How "open" is any hard-core religious fanatics mind? And how "closed" is someone who has chosen a different path? Have you seen how many posts on this forum get stormed by certain individuals with certain viewpoints? That's a heck of a lot more closed-minded than most of the "Church Kids" I know... but what would I know... I only am...er....was one

[awareness]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

This is quite arrogant, yes? I would argue that - yes, while there is quite a bit of Lee in our upbringing you are talking about a lifetime of Bible reading, verse memorization, etc. The RV wasn't out our whole lives...we've read other Bibles, too... and further... those of us who have made the choice to leave no doubt have spent countless hours comparing translations and what is offered by other denominations etc to see what else is out there. We just aren't puffed up about it (only some offense intended). Also LOL at growing up with closed minds. Have you actually observed the cross-section of "Church Kids" out there? How "open" is any hard-core religious fanatics mind? And how "closed" is someone who has chosen a different path? Have you seen how many posts on this forum get stormed by certain individuals with certain viewpoints? That's a heck of a lot more closed-minded than most of the "Church Kids" I know... but what would I know... I only am...er....was one

Kudos to you kappagamma, for not having a closed mind.