Awoken after 38 Years

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

I hope you set up a good example of how to reveal the truth surrounding the LCs publicly so that I can follow it in my country.

Amen Lord! Free our Father's children in South Korea! "As in heaven, so on earth"... amen Lord Jesus! The Word says, the children of the kingdom are free indeed... ~Matt 17:26

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

“If you have a problem with a group of people or an individual person, the best thing is to give them respect, just not say anything negative about them, and just cut off ties. To take verbal shots at people as you cut off ties with them is ugly and especially if you’re a Christian has no place.”

“May the Lord have mercy on us all and bring our use of social media into resurrection life. Satan is the liar, the killer, and destroyer. In Jesus, he has nothing, no hope, and no way.”

“Satan wants to distract us and keep us in turmoil, but I am here to say “Satan not today” I am looking away unto my Lord.”

“What are you looking at right now? Part of the enemy’s strategy is to lure you, even to compel you to look at some negative things in your environment or in your being or in your history…We need to say to the enemy, “Enemy shut up! I am going to look away to Jesus. I will not look at other or the failure of the condition of the church or my weakness or the enemy or Nephilim. I will look away unto Jesus. My eyes are on Him.”

“Notice the Word does not say that if you’re seemingly not heard to write a scathing letter making all kinds of accusations while keeping your own misdeeds hidden.”

“Do not be disappointed by the weakness of the local churches. I do not believe in the seemingly disappointing condition in the world or in the churches.”.”

I’ve long found it fascinating that a group that so easily slides into negative speaking towards others could also be so hypersensitive to any perception of negativity toward themselves. In any given meeting one hears either veiled or blunt statements about “Christianity” or “Babylon”, and we see it formalized in publications like “Affirmation and Critique”, but how dare anyone 'critique' the LC, or the LSM! Suddenly, "You are being negative"!

All one can do is point out the glaring disconnect and hope that the cognitive dissociation is seen. Because the illogic is there, and it’s glaring, once noticed. In fact, once seen it’s very hard to unsee! Which is a hopeful thing, probably.

But in the meantime, one of the clear symptoms of untrammeled subjectivity is the characterization of one’s own activity as “correction” or “rebuke” or “adjustment”, whereas if any of it seems to come back it’s called “attack” or “accusation” or “slander”.

“So subjective is my Christ in me…”; yes, so subjective that it has little bearing on objective reality, if any. It’s the me-first subjectivity of a small child in a sandbox, writ large across the captive assembly.

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Once I realized the many unethical practices of the local churches, I could no longer take part and feel an ethical duty to report what I have seen.

As a long-time participant on this forum, what I've seen are similar traits between the DYL spin-off in Brasil which the LSM has quarantined, the cultic spin-offs they've disowned in the mainland (after WL publicly claimed them from the podium in the '90s) and the LSM itself: paranoia, secrecy, code words, deceptive recruiting practices, isolationism, a one-way system of publicly losing face (the underlings always, the Deputy God never), and periodic "storms" and "rebellions" when the high-demand leadership becomes too onerous. Additionally I see the Bible getting prominently waved when it's useful (which is often) and ignored or dismissed when the "oracle" can't use it (also often).

On the positive side, what I've learned is that the gospel is so simple: either God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him glory, or not. If it is in fact so, then the other stuff in scripture has value inasmuch as it looks to the death and resurrection of the Messiah - it either looks ahead to this singularity (Psa 22) or it finds its meaning looking back (e.g., Rev 5:1-14). If there's no resurrection then the other stuff (parsing the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, the 'nature' of Christ, the 1000-year kingdom/rapture/tribulation, the church[es]) don't really matter much, do they?

It all boils down to one thing: the resurrection of Jesus from the dead on the third day. This was the Galilean fisherman Peter's message on Pentecost, a message repeated nearly verbatim by the Gamaliel-trained Pharisee Paul a few chapters later in the same book. Everything looks to this one moment. Either our universe finds its meaning in this one event or it doesn't. Once you get the stunning clarity of this claim, and position yourself yourself appropriately (I believe/don't believe) then the rest tends to sort itself out pretty quickly... what matters and what doesn't.

As Forrest Gump said, "And that's all I have to say about that".

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

Amen Lord! Free our Father's children in South Korea! "As in heaven, so on earth"... amen Lord Jesus! The Word says, the children of the kingdom are free indeed... ~Matt 17:26

Thanks, Aron.

This could be a bit off-topic from the MrsFreedom's narrative, but I'd like to float two points in this particular point of time when US-Sino trade war is going.

1. In a nutshell, some Chinese brothers are (knowingly or unknowingly) so proud of those two Chinese christian leaders (WN, WL) who have taken lead in the so called Lord's Recovery that they even called WL their "father." They seems to try to maintain Chinese dominance even in the church life.

There have been "air" of arrogance of Chinese brothers when they were supposed to co-work with other ethnic group saints, sometimes very noticeable. Unfortunately, I have to say an insidious ethnical discrimination (or elitism) has permeated LC's inner atmosphere like the debate between Hellenistic Jew and Hebraic Jew in Acts.

2. It was WN who failed before WL. I've read "My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church" by Lily Hsu, and understood why WN failed. I believe WL must have known those facts surrounding WN's failures, but WL didn't mention anything about those failures, meaning he himself was not balanced, not candid and had too much entanglements to start new.

The current leaders in the LC are trapped in a vicious cycle. The only escape would be frankly admitting their failures and shortcomings for turn-around, but instead they chose to tighten the inner control , just like the current CCP is doing to their innocent Chinese people.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

They seems to try to maintain Chinese dominance even in the church life. There's been an "air" of arrogance of Chinese brothers when they were supposed to co-work with other ethnic group saints, sometimes very noticeable. Unfortunately, I have to say an insidious ethnical discrimination (or elitism) has permeated LC's inner atmosphere like the debate between Hellenistic Jew and Hebraic Jew in Acts.

No small irony that 100 years later, a group birthed by nativist resentment to outside domination (think, Boxer Rebellion) subsequently imposed itself as an alien culture upon others. It cannot be overstressed that there's nothing wrong with Chinese culture per se, and in fact it has much to recommend it. But the church leadership that insists that there be "No culture" insinuates its own [Chinese] value systems and enables their dominance.

In my old "locality" the original church group has shrunk and the children are almost all gone - a few were captured by "the ministry" and are off serving somewhere, but most are through with the Christian religion in any form. The Sunday meeting is about 1/2 the size of the one I knew 30 years ago. But in the meantime a separate "Chinese-speaking meeting" has flourished. I suspect that in their eyes it's the Normal Christian Church Life, to use the title of a WN book. To Chinese it's as 'normal' as Anglican church practices were to Western missionaries in 19th-century China.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

I believe WL must have known those facts surrounding WN's failures, but WL didn't mention anything about those failures, meaning he himself was not balanced, not candid and had too much entanglements to start new.

The current leaders in the LC are trapped in a vicious cycle. The only escape would be frankly admitting their failures and shortcomings for turn-around, but instead they chose to tighten the inner control , just like the current CCP is doing to their innocent Chinese people.

Like Burger King, the LC can be called "Home of the Whopper" (yes I'm dating myself). One of the Big Lies in the LC was that in China, God found "virgin soil" for His "current move", free from the fallen-humanity-bred contaminations that plagued church-building efforts elsewhere. What a Whopper.

If you look at Peter in the NT, he's repeatedly failing, yet God still uses him. Jesus doesn't let him go. Why does one surmise from the NT that Christian leadership must be beyond error? Only with a culturally-derived lens (the Maximum Leader must never, ever lose face publicly) can one ignore the case of Peter. People, even Christian people, make mistakes, they get exposed, they learn, they repent, and they go on by God's grace. It's not the end of the world.

But WN and then WL were allowed to make mistakes again and again, and all the witnesses had to be purged, and everyone else had to pretend it never happened, and if you bring it up you're "leprous" and "poisonous"... how on earth can anyone grow, or change? How in heaven's name can anyone "become God" or even "become Godly" in such a make-believe world?

If you make a mistake, just repent. It's not such a big deal. You may have to relinquish your position as "Minister of the Age", but maybe, just maybe, God didn't want you to have such a position while on earth, anyway. You know, "He who's great in this age will be least in the kingdom of the heavens"... don't you want to be great in the kingdom of the heavens? So let go of your presumption of positional or dispositional infallibility. That's Jesus' forte, not ours. You and I are sinners. Redeemed and reborn, yes, but still fallible while in the flesh of sin. So stop with the make-believe.

[Cal]

Joanna,

They say "please just walk away."

When someone has a problem with them, they expect respect and decorum. When they have a problem with someone, they call them all kinds of demeaning names.

Like you said, you can't have it both ways.

And UntoHim, the Blendeds might not engage here, but they will repent someday. They will be sorrowful. It will happen, and perhaps sooner than you might think.

Like I said, the dam is cracking, and when dams break, things happen very quickly.

There is a phenomenon in finance and nature called the Minsky Moment. It is that point in some seemingly stable systems when they suddenly collapse or rearrange violently. Imagine for example you are carefully pouring sand onto a pile. The pile grows higher and higher, and is seemingly solid. But no matter how carefully you pour, at some point which you cannot quite predict, one side of the mound will collapse into an avalanche. One is never quite sure which final grain of sand will trigger the collapse. But it is inevitable. The only question is when.

My sense is the LR is nearing this point. If someone as devoted as Joanna can have the reaction she did, imagine how many others the Lord is preparing. Her resume reads like the Apostle Paul's! An LCer of LCers. Blameless. Absolute. But her purity of soul was not made for the LR, as Paul's was not for Judaism. It was made for God, as Paul's was. And God is jealous for his people. More and more will leave, and at some point a chain reaction will begin, and there will be no stopping it.

The Minsky Moment is near. A seismic shift is coming. Keep praying and watching.

[Koinonia]

We really need to pray for all of these people coming out or on the verge. Most of them, including Jo, are throwing everything away and identifying as atheists or agnostics.

[UntoHim]

Thanks for checking in Koinonia.

I don't believe that Jo has identified as "an atheist or agnostic". She did go through a very dark place in which she doubted God. Of course she can speak for herself.

You have identified a very troubling trend for younger Local Churchers coming out of the movement - an alarming number have turned away from the faith. I know that in the locality where I've been for over 25 years, a vary large number of the 2nd generation have not only abandoned the false religion of the Local Church, but have also turned away from the Lord. I couldn't give you a percentage, but it is well over 50%, and probably closer to 70%. I now understand that this phenomenon is not isolated to a few localities, but these numbers are common throughout the movement in the USA.

I think there is little doubt what the main reason is for what is happening in the Local Church among the young people - the Local Church has become part of the dead religion that they have decried for decades. Sadly, and somewhat ironically, they have become one of the poorest sects of "poor, poor, Christianity". The dynamic that Joanna has described here indicates that of a starving Christian. The "green garden" of the church life has become a barren wasteland. If they really had been "eating, drinking, breathing Jesus" there would not be the problems that the Casteels have described in this letter.

The reason that there is such an alarming number of young ones abandoning the faith is that Witness Lee and his followers have abandoned the Gospel. Lee's "higher gospel" is not the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, or the Gospel of the Scripture writing apostles. Lee's "high peak truths" are neither high nor truths. They are, in fact, "another gospel". Yes, they are novel. Yes, They are enticingly unique. Yes, they are even partially biblical. But they are without the true nutrition that is provided in "the faith once delivered to the saints". They are pseudo manna. They look like manna. They smell like manna. They may even taste like manna. But they are devoid of the life-giving nutrition that comes down from heaven. May the genuine "Bread of Life" have mercy on these dear people. May the genuine Light of the World shine on them and light the path to a new and living way.
-

[MrsFreedom]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

We really need to pray for all of these people coming out or on the verge. Most of them, including Jo, are throwing everything away and identifying as atheists or agnostics.

Can I ask Koinonia, what led you to believe that I'm now atheist or agnostic?

~J

[Ohio]

For the first time in my adult life I lost faith in God Himself. I was done with this awful God who only had judgment for me. There was no meaningful love or forgiveness from Him. My kingdom reward could be snatched away for thinking a negative thought towards an elder who told me that God does not need my love.

I was done with God and it shook up my entire existence.

MrsFreedom, Koinonia's comment bothered me too, so I went back and read your letter again. Had I stopped after reading the above section, I might have assumed wrongly as he did. But I kept reading ...

And I hope the "Freedoms" keep writing their story about the love and freedom we have in Jesus.

But this brings up another matter on my heart -- most of those who have left the Recovery gave up God for good. It's so sad! They could not separate a legalistic, abusive, and thought-controlling system from our loving Savior Jesus. So both had to go. Hopefully just in the short term. And this is why this forum exists, not just to expose all the deception in the Recovery, but to mention that a path does exist to return to simplicity -- loving Jesus, loving His word, loving all His people, and loving our neighbor.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Can I ask Koinonia, what led you to believe that I'm now atheist or agnostic?

~J

I think this is a really important part of the story of leaving, particularly for second generation. Jo, I think you did a really dynamic job of describing the difficult process.

The experience growing up in the LC is so all consuming. It is, frankly, all life itself. Everything of worth and meaning is derived from its ecosystem.

For a second generation to begin to see its cracks and its faults and its abuses - well, that is utterly identity-destroying. It is completely disillusioning. It is very natural to simply say, "Man, if there is a God, He's an a$s&o#e. How could this faith that was so beautiful and fueling of my whole life be built on such lies and deceptive practices?"

I don't blame folks for having extreme doubt, even bitterness, while going through this process. Its the nature of the system, particularly for those born into it.

Which makes it so utterly powerful when, despite leaving, a second generation re-finds a faith that they OWN for themselves.

Much love,

Peter

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Can I ask Koinonia, what led you to believe that I'm now atheist or agnostic?

~J

You have indicated as much on Facebook.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

We really need to pray for all of these people coming out or on the verge. Most of them, including Jo, are throwing everything away and identifying as atheists or agnostics.

I'd like to throw in my two cents. I've been reading Koinonia here for several years and the posts are often among the most well-thought-out and well-reasoned things on this forum.

But in this case I'd like to say, "Let them be what they are". Some of the posters on Jo's FB page are self-identifying as non-Christian. Some are antagonistic to the faith. Some are using language not becoming of Christian (imho). But they've come out of an extremely repressive system - what the individual thinks for feels doesn't matter, and all that matters is to conform to the Hive Mind. Many were under this from infancy. So when they break out many of them scream and shout. Good! Let them shout!

Look at the people whom Jesus healed. Many of them were crying out and rolling in the dust, probably shrieking even. I say, Let them do what they need to do.

Our job (I'm using the royal 'we' here) as Christians is to meet people where they are, and respect them for what they are, today. Don't force them from one repressive thought-system (a reflexive non-thought system, really) into another. Just be patient and caring and let them know that they're loved, that their feelings and thoughts matter. We're here with them and for them, as they sort it all out.

Some of the stuff on the FB page is absolutely mind-blowing. And I've been on this forum for years. They have copies of emails the trainees were sent in the FTTA. They are writing about what it felt like being a teenager in that system, what it was like to be "in the pipeline".

But of course as Christians we should be a praying people, not "praying at" others but saying 'amen' to the Father of light who loves everyone. As in heaven, so on earth. And in heaven there is love.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

As Forrest Gump said, "And that's all I have to say about that."

There's always an addendum, ha-ha.

I brought up the simplicity of the gospel specifically as an antidote to the obfuscation of esoteric "mystical" verbiage and the subsequent need to hide it from "new ones" when recruiting. Peter's gospel was simple on Pentecost, and nothing has changed. Everything else looks to this.

The deception in LC recruiting is a dead giveaway to what this group is all about. Veiled, subtle, insistent control.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

There's always an addendum, ha-ha.

I brought up the simplicity of the gospel specifically as an antidote to the obfuscation of esoteric "mystical" verbiage and the subsequent need to hide it from "new ones" when recruiting. Peter's gospel was simple on Pentecost, and nothing has changed. Everything else looks to this.

The deception in LC recruiting is a dead giveaway to what this group is all about. Veiled, subtle, insistent control.

In Corinth Paul faced much of the same esoteric "mystical" verbiage which seems to possess these folks. When it comes to "who is of who," all simplicity of faith gets lost in the dense fog. Paul's guiding beacon was to know nothing, but Christ and Him crucified.