Awoken after 38 Years

[MrsFreedom]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

We really need to pray for all of these people coming out or on the verge. Most of them, including Jo, are throwing everything away and identifying as atheists or agnostics.

Can I ask Koinonia, what led you to believe that I'm now atheist or agnostic?

~J

[Ohio]

For the first time in my adult life I lost faith in God Himself. I was done with this awful God who only had judgment for me. There was no meaningful love or forgiveness from Him. My kingdom reward could be snatched away for thinking a negative thought towards an elder who told me that God does not need my love.

I was done with God and it shook up my entire existence.

MrsFreedom, Koinonia's comment bothered me too, so I went back and read your letter again. Had I stopped after reading the above section, I might have assumed wrongly as he did. But I kept reading ...

And I hope the "Freedoms" keep writing their story about the love and freedom we have in Jesus.

But this brings up another matter on my heart -- most of those who have left the Recovery gave up God for good. It's so sad! They could not separate a legalistic, abusive, and thought-controlling system from our loving Savior Jesus. So both had to go. Hopefully just in the short term. And this is why this forum exists, not just to expose all the deception in the Recovery, but to mention that a path does exist to return to simplicity -- loving Jesus, loving His word, loving all His people, and loving our neighbor.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Can I ask Koinonia, what led you to believe that I'm now atheist or agnostic?

~J

I think this is a really important part of the story of leaving, particularly for second generation. Jo, I think you did a really dynamic job of describing the difficult process.

The experience growing up in the LC is so all consuming. It is, frankly, all life itself. Everything of worth and meaning is derived from its ecosystem.

For a second generation to begin to see its cracks and its faults and its abuses - well, that is utterly identity-destroying. It is completely disillusioning. It is very natural to simply say, "Man, if there is a God, He's an a$s&o#e. How could this faith that was so beautiful and fueling of my whole life be built on such lies and deceptive practices?"

I don't blame folks for having extreme doubt, even bitterness, while going through this process. Its the nature of the system, particularly for those born into it.

Which makes it so utterly powerful when, despite leaving, a second generation re-finds a faith that they OWN for themselves.

Much love,

Peter

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

For a second generation to begin to see its cracks and its faults and its abuses - well, that is utterly identity-destroying. It is completely disillusioning. It is very natural to simply say, "Man, if there is a God, He's an a$s&o#e. How could this faith that was so beautiful and fueling of my whole life be built on such lies and deceptive practices?"

The Emperor's New Clothes is a brilliant analogy of what many of us have gone through. See what's really going on. Until you find a forum such as this it can be quite maddening thinking "how is it I see this and no one else does?"

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Can I ask Koinonia, what led you to believe that I'm now atheist or agnostic?

~J

You have indicated as much on Facebook.

[MrsFreedom]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

You have indicated as much on Facebook.

Are you referring to what I have said on the main FB thread?

I need to look through my comments and see what indicated that if so.

~J

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Are you referring to what I have said on the main FB thread?

I need to look through my comments and see what indicated that if so.

~J

I'm not sure I understand--are you trying to hide the fact that you no longer believe?

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I'm not sure I understand--are you trying to hide the fact that you no longer believe?

Koinonia:

You might try quoting what you read and then ask questions. Given that Jo is actually on this thread, you might try avoiding 1) talking about her in third person; 2) being caustic rather than asking questions.

Just some thoughts.

Peter

[MrsFreedom]

To anyone who wants to pop over to my FB post and contribute, you are more than welcome.

I know that many saints are reading the comments even if they aren't commenting due to the number of them who are reaching out to me asking questions.

Anyone who would like to contribute history about DayStar, WL's two sons, the control of LSM, etc. would have a lot to bring to the table.

I'm still learning since I have only been out for a couple of months and many of you have had years of learning.

Thanks so much and once again thank you for this forum!
~J

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

To anyone who wants to pop over to my FB post and contribute, you are more than welcome.

I know that many saints are reading the comments even if they aren't commenting due to the number of them who are reaching out to me asking questions.

Anyone who would like to contribute history about DayStar, WL's two sons, the control of LSM, etc. would have a lot to bring to the table.

I'm still learning since I have only been out for a couple of months and many of you have had years of learning.

Thanks so much and once again thank you for this forum!
~J

This thread about Daystar is somewhat coherent, but unfortunately Daystar discussions tend to pop up all over the forum. Many of the picture links have expired.

The story about WL's son Philip was the most egregious:

1. Philip had a long history of molesting sisters who volunteered to serve at LSM. Back in the late '70's, Max Rapoport confronted him about it, and WL expelled Max with numerous false accusations.
2. Philip Lee was placed 2nd in command and treated dogs better than LC co-workers and elders. WL treated them only slightly better.
3. If, like John So, a brother rejected PL's abuses, then Philip retaliated against the saints from Germany
4. John Ingalls' account Speaking the Truth in Love made it abundantly clear that neither he nor other elders were out to hurt WL
5. Like son, like father, WL retaliated against Ingalls et.al. with many false accusations, by smearing their reputations, and then expelling them
6. In order to "change the subject" in the Recovery, and redirect the attention of the remaining saints, WL devised "high peak" teachings about becoming God. That only served to puff up the saints.

All this is documented, and has been posted on the forum.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

To anyone who wants to pop over to my FB post and contribute, you are more than welcome.

I know that many saints are reading the comments even if they aren't commenting due to the number of them who are reaching out to me asking questions.

Anyone who would like to contribute history about DayStar, WL's two sons, the control of LSM, etc. would have a lot to bring to the table.

I'm still learning since I have only been out for a couple of months and many of you have had years of learning.

Thanks so much and once again thank you for this forum!
~J

Thanks, MrsFreedom for your effort. Regardless of your intention, I believe you are setting up a good example of how to publicly react when a disenchanted saint leaves the vicious system.

The exactly same thing as you described in FB post is happening in my country, South Korea. Recently one of leading brother who is close to me stepped down from the leadership position in the Church in Seoul citing his personal stuffs. But, I know he has passed through a lot of troubles during his service. Most of leading brothers in Korea are wearing the persona to still support the Lord Recovery, but actually they know there is something wrong.

The only reason they still are there is... authority, financial needs, and fears to be condemned as rebellious. In a sense, they devoted their youth and now in their 40s, 50s, 60s, where they could go?

BTW, WL's failures are surprisingly similar to WN's. If you have any spare time, I recommend you reading "My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church" now available in eBook format at Amazon. I saw history is repeating...

[Jo S]

Hi Jo,

I'd like to say that I admire your courage in speaking out. I know it takes a lot to do something like this and I know it'll also encourage others by letting them know they're not alone in their struggles.

I will be honest in saying that, like Koinonia, I also got the sense from reading your letter that you may have lost faith. While I don't agree with the way it was expressed by him, I can't help but to notice the lack of a testimony pointing back to God. As a Christian that has been through a few trials, it's just something that's apparent. This could be the reason why some may think this way.

My hope, however, is that it all does eventually go full circle and point back to Him. I don't have any reason to think otherwise. Our God is awesome and many that have already gone through what you're going through and have come out the other side with a much stronger and more resilient faith in Jesus Christ are praying for you.

You want to know something? It's completely understandable that one's faith in God is shaken in these types of circumstances...if in fact that is the case for you. If it is, please don't feel ashamed or condemned. As others have said, it's something that's normal and part of a process. Do have courage because I believe God is involved in this process and doing a great work in you and your family's lives.

With that said, it's not necessarily a bad thing to be stripped of the "god" and "Jesus" of the Local Churches. I say that because it's my personal belief that you have been taught a different gospel, a different Christ, and have been dictated a faith that wasn't your own. The danger is, however, allowing vengeful anger and wrath to come through the void that is left after coming out of oppressive religious groups.

My prayer in all of this is that the Lord shelter you and your family through this storm and fill you with the love and knowledge of our wonderful Savior. Take heart Jo, Jesus has already overcome the world. Self-determination helps us take the first steps but it'll only get us so far. Allow Him be your strength and comfort going forward.