Soul-Life, Kundalini, and Watchman Nee

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I heard stories from China that Little Flock attendees would unconsciously adopt Watchman Nee's style. The same in the LC: the more "Leeisms" the better, with head rolls, heel rocks, hand thrusts, and sing-song tempo, indicated that an attendee was "in spirit" and "one with the apostle"..

"As surely as Watchman Nee clicked his dentures when he prayed, his admirers clicked when they prayed, dentures or no dentures"

The Anatomy of Preaching by David Larsen p.113

"Nee's popularity rose dramatically, but others dissented from the church's change of emphasis ["Jerusalem principle"]. Nee's own nephew became disillusioned by the growing idolization of Watchman. Lyall even reports that the clicking that accompanied Nee's speech because of his loose-fitting dentures was often unconsciously imitated in prayer."

Secrets of Watchman Nee by Dana Roberts, p.33

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

"As surely as Watchman Nee clicked his dentures when he prayed, his admirers clicked when they prayed, dentures or no dentures"

The Anatomy of Preaching by David Larsen p.113

"Nee's popularity rose dramatically, but others dissented from the church's change of emphasis ["Jerusalem principle"]. Nee's own nephew became disillusioned by the growing idolization of Watchman. Lyall even reports that the clicking that accompanied Nee's speech because of his loose-fitting dentures was often unconsciously imitated in prayer."

Secrets of Watchman Nee by Dana Roberts, p.33

"Even W. Nee's own nephew became disillusioned by the growing idolization of Nee."

That's something we never heard from W. Lee.

[Jo S]

The more I delve into Local Church theology the more I realize the intricacies in the patchwork stitched together by Watchman Nee which seems to be mostly made up of the doctrines of failed Charismatic movements and eastern belief systems.

I was previously focused on Witness Lee's teachings but going to the root and now understanding Nee's mystical outlook on circumstance and his eclectic approach to gaining "light", it's more clear to me how similar his approach to spirituality is to those caught up in the false spirituality of New Ageism.

Here's a great article to read on the New Age in case you're not familiar with it's beliefs

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

The more I delve into Local Church theology the more I realize the intricacies in the patchwork stitched together by Watchman Nee which seems to be mostly made up of the doctrines of failed Charismatic movements and eastern belief systems.

I was previously focused on Witness Lee's teachings but going to the root and now understanding Nee's mystical outlook on circumstance and his eclectic approach to gaining "light", it's more clear to me how similar his approach to spirituality is to those caught up in the false spirituality of New Ageism.

The problem with looking up Nee is that it's hard to get clear objective info. Here is the first website when you Google "Watchman Nee Keswick"

https://faithsaves.net/watchman-nee/

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

The problem with looking up Nee is that it's hard to get clear objective info. Here is the first website when you Google "Watchman Nee Keswick"

https://faithsaves.net/watchman-nee/

It's an interesting read.

It also hit me while reading on a recent thread here (the Body-Christ thread) that LCer's, even one that claims to have left, remains an adherent of modalism.

In the LC it's taught that Jesus, after resurrection, ceased being a human being as you and I. Rather, "the church" or "the body of Christ" literally became Jesus' physical aspect of existence and that the "head" resides in Heaven as "the spirit". That's a form of modalism and it's the same belief you'll find in new age groups that teach "Christ consciousness".

The man Jesus Christ our savior is still, to this very day, in a glorified physical body of flesh contained within his own individual person.

This modalist view of Christ is why movements like the Lord's Recovery believe they have to subdue the earth before his return (dominionism) because they think they are literally his physical body, as if he somehow dissevered during the ascension, and needs to be conjoined again by their works.

[Ohio]

These are strange teachings indeed about the LC, which I never knew nor heard, even after 3 decades of active service.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These are strange teachings indeed about the LC, which I never knew nor heard, even after 3 decades of active service.

From the website:

“No single person is more responsible for the development of Nee’s theology than Miss Barber.” Pg. 15, Secrets of Watchman Nee, Roberts.

“[T]he main influences upon [Nee were] so often . . . women—Dora Yu, his mother, Margaret Barber, Ruth Lee, [and] Elizabeth Fischbacher[.]” Pg. 156, Against the Tide, Kinnear.

"Whenever [Nee] had a problem or needed spiritual instruction or strengthening, he would go to . . . Margaret E. Barber . . . an Anglican missionary[.] . . . [He testified that] [e]very Saturday [he] went to Ma-Kiang, Fukien, to listen to Miss Margaret Barber’s preaching. . . . [H]e said that he scarcely found one person in the Western world who could compare with Margaret Barber. It was through this sister that he obtained the foundation of the spiritual life. He frequently told others that it was through a sister [Dora Yu] that he was saved and that it was also through a sister [Margaret Barber] that he was edified. . . . Through Margaret Barber he became familiar with the books of [writers such as] Jessie Penn-Lewis . . . [who taught him about] the subjective aspect of Christ’s death[,] . . . spiritual warfare[,] . . . [and] the three parts of man. . . . Watchman Nee received a clear vision of what it means to be an overcomer by . . . reading the writings of Jessie Penn-Lewis. . . . Madame Guyon’s biography . . . and the writings of other mystics helped him in the matter of life. . . . Mary McDonough’s book . . . was a great help . . . [c]oncerning God’s plan of redemption. Pgs. 11-18, 25-26, 70, 81, Watchman Nee: A Seer of the Divine Revelation, Lee.

Now, this web page is biased on a number of levels. The author clearly disapproves of women having any meaningful role in the church, which many of us don't agree with. But I cite it because the LSM, publishers of Nee and Lee, also don't let women function meaningfully. In the LC, women can bake the Lord's table crackers, set up coffee for after the meeting, and watch the children during the conferences.

But Paul said, "Women must be silent" so that's that... except Nee clearly didn't follow that in his development and they all know it! LSM even touts it in the Nee biography. All those "uppity women" trying to be "spiritual"... today they'd be run out of the LC so fast their heads would spin. But they were the edifice upon which the whole structure was built. Go figure. Talk about 'cut-and-paste' theology!

[Jo S]

....edit....

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Jo S

None are separate from each other so we have to be careful also that we don't discard any of them as in saying feelings, or emotions, or subjective experiences in themselves are inherently bad and not a part of our relationship with God. The only thing is we shouldn't be chasing after these things or rely on them as validation because without a full understanding we'll actually chase our own constructs rather then what's real. And it's human nature to only want the ecstacy (good) rather than the hurt and suffering (bad) that comes along with God's love. And you know who will offer you only the convenient things of life....(Mark 8:33)

After reading some more LC literature today, I wanted to expound on this point.

Be cautious of leaders who put emphasis on some vague and mysterious "subjective experience of Christ" rather than a simple and understandable relationship with Jesus Christ.

In mysticism, spirituality consists of subjective experiences that are fleeting feelings of ecstasy and elation. These are usually preceded by certain works or techniques as found in the LC's such as "pray reading" or euphoric cries of "Oh, Lord Jesus".

Christians, on the other hand, differ from mystics in that there is an ongoing (not fleeting) relationship with God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit beginning the moment one receives salvation.

While God works subjectively in concert with our thoughts and emotions, it wouldn't be considered so much as a "subjective experience". Experiences are gained and experiences come and go but when the spirit of God indwells you, he will never leave you nor forsake you to the point that you feel you have to constantly gain or chase after him.

With mysticsm, there's a constant seeking after an experience of "God", or what in reality is just a generic experience of the spiritual realm. And like a drug, with these types of experiences, once the previous high wears off you're back at it looking for the next trip.

Normal relationships, however, don't consist of a series of highs and lows. In them you understand there are going to be different seasons but for the most part there's a certain continuity and stability.

At points where relationships are suffering, it usually isn't something that can be fixed or repaired with a just a simple act or gesture, it's a deeper issue of the heart that takes reflection, communication, and repentance to mend. But with the mystic, the solution to fixing a low always seems to be a quick psychological technique or other practice to alter the circumstance.

Mind altering practices learned though mysticism are specifically designed to pierce through the spiritual veil but the danger is it's not timed by God but imposed on by human will.

Through practices like chanting, meditiation, scheduled fastings ect. you can have genuine spiritual experieces that makes it seem like you're living the Christian life but these are the same types of experiences that so many other non-Christian mystics have as well. Jesus said even if you find a way to cleanse your innerself, without him and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whatever spirit that was purged will only return with 7 different spirits leaving your spiritual condition worse off than before. (Matthew 12:45).

Speaking from my own experience even a Christian at a low point in their walk with Christ can be tempted with mysticism when desiring to reestablish closeness to God that seemed to have disappeared, but rather than doing things the hard way through humbling ourselves by admitting wrongs and changing our ways we begin to learn how to manipulate spiritual things through practices taught to us by deceiving spirits or deceived leaders.

With that said, we were warned by the Savior, if you are entering the sheep fold by any other way than the door, you are a thief and a robber (John 10:1).

And I'll finish with this. Paul says that there are different Jesus's being taught in the churches and through them different spirits other than the Holy Spirit of God are being imparted (2 Corinthians 11:4). If you were one that was raised in the Local Church's of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and affirmed by members of the LC's that you are saved or you received "Jesus" at a later time through the LC's but feel that there is something seriously wrong and experience strong doubts, test the spirits that you received through the Local Church by scripture and earnest prayer (1 John 4).