Soul-Life, Kundalini, and Watchman Nee

[Ohio]

These are strange teachings indeed about the LC, which I never knew nor heard, even after 3 decades of active service.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These are strange teachings indeed about the LC, which I never knew nor heard, even after 3 decades of active service.

From the website:

“No single person is more responsible for the development of Nee’s theology than Miss Barber.” Pg. 15, Secrets of Watchman Nee, Roberts.

“[T]he main influences upon [Nee were] so often . . . women—Dora Yu, his mother, Margaret Barber, Ruth Lee, [and] Elizabeth Fischbacher[.]” Pg. 156, Against the Tide, Kinnear.

"Whenever [Nee] had a problem or needed spiritual instruction or strengthening, he would go to . . . Margaret E. Barber . . . an Anglican missionary[.] . . . [He testified that] [e]very Saturday [he] went to Ma-Kiang, Fukien, to listen to Miss Margaret Barber’s preaching. . . . [H]e said that he scarcely found one person in the Western world who could compare with Margaret Barber. It was through this sister that he obtained the foundation of the spiritual life. He frequently told others that it was through a sister [Dora Yu] that he was saved and that it was also through a sister [Margaret Barber] that he was edified. . . . Through Margaret Barber he became familiar with the books of [writers such as] Jessie Penn-Lewis . . . [who taught him about] the subjective aspect of Christ’s death[,] . . . spiritual warfare[,] . . . [and] the three parts of man. . . . Watchman Nee received a clear vision of what it means to be an overcomer by . . . reading the writings of Jessie Penn-Lewis. . . . Madame Guyon’s biography . . . and the writings of other mystics helped him in the matter of life. . . . Mary McDonough’s book . . . was a great help . . . [c]oncerning God’s plan of redemption. Pgs. 11-18, 25-26, 70, 81, Watchman Nee: A Seer of the Divine Revelation, Lee.

Now, this web page is biased on a number of levels. The author clearly disapproves of women having any meaningful role in the church, which many of us don't agree with. But I cite it because the LSM, publishers of Nee and Lee, also don't let women function meaningfully. In the LC, women can bake the Lord's table crackers, set up coffee for after the meeting, and watch the children during the conferences.

But Paul said, "Women must be silent" so that's that... except Nee clearly didn't follow that in his development and they all know it! LSM even touts it in the Nee biography. All those "uppity women" trying to be "spiritual"... today they'd be run out of the LC so fast their heads would spin. But they were the edifice upon which the whole structure was built. Go figure. Talk about 'cut-and-paste' theology!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

From the website:

“No single person is more responsible for the development of Nee’s theology than Miss Barber.” Pg. 15, Secrets of Watchman Nee, Roberts.

“[T]he main influences upon [Nee were] so often . . . women—Dora Yu, his mother, Margaret Barber, Ruth Lee, [and] Elizabeth Fischbacher[.]” Pg. 156, Against the Tide, Kinnear.

"Whenever [Nee] had a problem or needed spiritual instruction or strengthening, he would go to . . . Margaret E. Barber . . . an Anglican missionary[.] . . . [He testified that] [e]very Saturday [he] went to Ma-Kiang, Fukien, to listen to Miss Margaret Barber’s preaching. . . . [H]e said that he scarcely found one person in the Western world who could compare with Margaret Barber. It was through this sister that he obtained the foundation of the spiritual life. He frequently told others that it was through a sister [Dora Yu] that he was saved and that it was also through a sister [Margaret Barber] that he was edified. . . . Through Margaret Barber he became familiar with the books of [writers such as] Jessie Penn-Lewis . . . [who taught him about] the subjective aspect of Christ’s death[,] . . . spiritual warfare[,] . . . [and] the three parts of man. . . . Watchman Nee received a clear vision of what it means to be an overcomer by . . . reading the writings of Jessie Penn-Lewis. . . . Madame Guyon’s biography . . . and the writings of other mystics helped him in the matter of life. . . . Mary McDonough’s book . . . was a great help . . . [c]oncerning God’s plan of redemption. Pgs. 11-18, 25-26, 70, 81, Watchman Nee: A Seer of the Divine Revelation, Lee.

Now, this web page is biased on a number of levels. The author clearly disapproves of women having any meaningful role in the church, which many of us don't agree with. But I cite it because the LSM, publishers of Nee and Lee, also don't let women function meaningfully. In the LC, women can bake the Lord's table crackers, set up coffee for after the meeting, and watch the children during the conferences.

But Paul said, "Women must be silent" so that's that... except Nee clearly didn't follow that in his development and they all know it! LSM even touts it in the Nee biography. All those "uppity women" trying to be "spiritual"... today they'd be run out of the LC so fast their heads would spin. But they were the edifice upon which the whole structure was built. Go figure. Talk about 'cut-and-paste' theology!

I guess that could happen if/when you shut the mouth of the one sent to help you.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

I guess that could happen if/when you shut the mouth of the one sent to help you.

Nell

One of the worst things in the Bible is to ignore God's messengers. God will send the 'small' and 'weak' things, and watch your response. That 'sensitive sister' may have the most important word of all... or as current ministry mouthpiece RK once put it, mockingly, "spiritual sisters". He sounded like he was spitting out rotten food. It was shocking (I was a die-hard LC'er sitting in the front row).

He told us, "Sometimes I think that the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister".

And yet they brag about all the ones that "raised up" Watchman Nee. Go figure.

[Jo S]

Although I have an idea, I can't fully understand what you guys have been through in the LC's. I do pray the Lord's healing on all you who are still fighting to try to understand. Even though this isn't necessarily my fight, I'm gladly standing along side you and all those in the LC I've gotten to know along the way.

I know it's difficult to separate the men from their teachings but I would really ask to try and keep more focus on the doctrines themselves and their pretenses.

"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

Our fight shouldn't be against Lee or Nee but on exposing the entity behind the lies. It's easy to put all the blame these men, they were deceived the same as you, but it's Satan that seems to always get away unnoticed and scot-free in these circumstances. The Lord will be their judge.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I know it's difficult to separate the men from their teachings but I would really ask to try and keep more focus on the doctrines themselves and their pretenses.

"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

There's a line from Isaiah 40: "Lift your eyes and look to the heavens/who created all these?" The prophet was trying to get those ensnared by idols of wood and stone and brass to lift up their consciousnesses, their views, towards the Eternal One. One day I decided to believe in the existence of God. It seemed that all of creation demanded of me that I acknowledge, at least in principle, a Creator. At some point further on I confessed Jesus as Lord, which set me on a path. In this I am no different than Watchman Nee or the apostle Paul, or any other professing believer.

Now we should test any arguments for pretense, especially our own! There are a lot of poorly reasoned ideas out there, that should be called out. People have been badly stumbled by them. People have become disillusioned, cynical, frustrated, discouraged, dispirited. We should call out bad ideas, always knowing we're no better than anyone else.

Jesus has been tested and approved, and is worthy of every accolade. As for the rest, it waits. We should presume nothing.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

There's a line from Isaiah 40: "Lift your eyes and look to the heavens/who created all these?" The prophet was trying to get those ensnared by idols of wood and stone and brass to lift up their consciousnesses, their views, towards the Eternal One. One day I decided to believe in the existence of God. It seemed that all of creation demanded of me that I acknowledge, at least in principle, a Creator. At some point further on I confessed Jesus as Lord, which set me on a path. In this I am no different than Watchman Nee or the apostle Paul, or any other professing believer.

And it's to this point I hope all those involved in the LC's can return to for a fresh start and relearn the truth directly from the source of truth. I see the struggle with many lies in the belief that there are still somethings to salvage.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

One of the worst things in the Bible is to ignore God's messengers. God will send the 'small' and 'weak' things, and watch your response. That 'sensitive sister' may have the most important word of all... or as current ministry mouthpiece RK once put it, mockingly, "spiritual sisters". He sounded like he was spitting out rotten food. It was shocking (I was a die-hard LC'er sitting in the front row).

He told us, "Sometimes I think that the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister".

And yet they brag about all the ones that "raised up" Watchman Nee. Go figure.

Aron,

I once heard a brother "testify" about how much of a burden his wife and children were to his walk with the Lord. His wife wasn't in that meeting. She was in the hospital, having just delivered his 4th child.

In one of the early 10-Day Training meetings our "locality" was called on to be "tested." Lee singled out this same sister individually to answer the test question. She froze. He kept saying "Sister!...Sister!...Answer the question..." He was brutal. He went on and on and wouldn't shut up. She was obviously terrified. She was a quiet sister by nature and very sweet. Everyone in the room was dying for her...everyone except Witness Lee. After that, she was never the same. Not only did she not testify in the meetings anymore, she rarely smiled. Witness Lee destroyed her.

One time in my locality, another married brother charged into the meeting screaming and shouting "O_L_J"! His wife was behind him, her arms full carrying their infant child, the diaper bag, her purse, her Bible and Hymnal... As her spiritual husband was "releasing his spirit" he let the door close in his wife's face. Elder George Whitington stopped the meeting. He just about blew a gasket. He stopped this brother in his tracks and with an angry red face, and his index finger pointing, George rebuked this brother to his face in front of everyone in the hall. George was a good man and gifted with the talent of speaking plain English. I had never seen anything like that before, and haven't seen anything like it since.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

In one of the early 10-Day Training meetings our "locality" was called on to be "tested." Lee singled out this same sister individually to answer the test question. She froze. He kept saying "Sister!...Sister!...Answer the question..." He was brutal. He went on and on and wouldn't shut up. She was obviously terrified. She was a quiet sister by nature and very sweet. Everyone in the room was dying for her...everyone except Witness Lee. After that, she was never the same. Not only did she not testify in the meetings anymore, she rarely smiled. Witness Lee destroyed her.

Yet not one person had the courage and conviction to do the right thing and stand up to the bully on behalf of that sister.

How could we get that way?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yet not one person had the courage and conviction to do the right thing and stand up to the bully on behalf of that sister.

How could we get that way?

Behind every bad idea is a bad spirit. I remember when Witness Lee passed and we were told from the dias, "The age of spiritual giants is over". No scripture was given. So this idea of "one revelation per age" ended with the passing of its progenitor. Now there are no more "seers of the divine revelation", as Lee's biography called Watchman Nee.

But the "new light from the word" ended on what basis? No basis was given. And yet no one has the ability to question such a pronouncement? What spirit is behind this?

As I wrote elsewhere, perhaps "God's economy which is in faith" is related to the daily dispensing in Acts 6:1, and the dispensing (RecV) of Paul and Barnabas in Acts 12:25 and the "remember the poor" of Galatians 2:10 and Paul hurrying to Jerusalem by Pentecost with gentile-sourced alms (Romans 15:25-27; Acts 20:16; 24:17)... perhaps it isn't... but why can't we think about such things anymore? Why does LSM say that "the age of unfolding revelation is over"? What spirit is at work behind that kind of thought (or non-thought)? Anyone who thinks, or questions the status quo, is in danger of being labeled "divisive" and "factious" and "ambitious"?

What spirit is at work, here?