afazio - Spiritual Authority

[awareness]

Interloping again.

Originally Posted by Drake

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument

And I've bemoaned this silence repeatedly. I sure wish we had a list of all those that have left the LC. They prolly outnumber those that are presently in the LC.

I guess you're glad we don't hear from most of them.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Interloping again.

And I've bemoaned this silence repeatedly. I sure wish we had a list of all those that have left the LC. They prolly outnumber those that are presently in the LC.

I guess you're glad we don't hear from most of them.

It doesn't matter to me either way, awareness. However, if there are droves that have left as you imply (I know of no such thing but for sake of argument) then perhaps they moved on. I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

I could ask the same of you?? ?? ??
I do it because I enjoy connecting with LCer's. But I know plenty that don't waste their time on any LC forums.

In fact, the sister that initially introduced me to LC forums, by linking a post on The Bereans.net, doesn't want anything to do with being on LC forums. She's moved on. She now studies cults. I wonder why??

Her husband, not a LCer, is, or was, a genius Orthodox Jew (still a genius). He too has an interest in cults. I wonder why??

Oh darn. That dreaded rerun again. Sorry.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by awareness

I could ask the same of you?? ?? ??
I do it because I enjoy connecting with LCer's. But I know plenty that don't waste their time on any LC forums.

In fact, the sister that initially introduced me to LC forums, by linking a post on The Bereans.net, doesn't want anything to do with being on LC forums. She's moved on. She now studies cults. I wonder why??

Her husband, not a LCer, is, or was, a genius Orthodox Jew (still a genius). He too has an interest in cults. I wonder why??

Oh darn. That dreaded rerun again. Sorry.

It is so important to warn others about the LSM and there is almost no recent content for the poor college student that find themselves in this group. Plus new folks come along every so often that can benefit from those who have been on the inside and seen the LSM for what it really is.

I agree it is also fun/interesting to hear from others. My final months in the LSM I felt as if I was going crazy - the blatant deception and corrosive culture is far from being the Ministey of the Age - maybe quite worse. Go figure, I leave the LSM church and find this website where others have also seen what I saw!

I don’t talk about my time in the LSM outside of this forum. Quite frankly it’s embarrassing and I’m far too prideful to be associate with such a group, plus unless someone has been in a cult, they wouldn’t understand anyway. The entire premise that Witness Lee promotes is intriguing until you understand the reality of it. Either he was the MOTA and his ministry is the MOTA or he wasn’t - and it isn’t.

Read as much as you can about the ministry, visit their churches if you need to, seek the council of a strong believer outside of the LSM as an unbiased source of guidance. Most importantly read scripture and pray that the Spirit will lead you to truth. I believe the Lord will be faithful in that, he was to me, and for that I’m grateful.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

Matthew 18:31 "When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened."

What do you think the king said? "Why are you are just wallowing in gall and rancor! Get over it!"

Do you think the king would put up with reports of unrighteousness? Of course not! Yet we're supposed to pretend the LCs didn't happen, and just "get over it"? Or how about, "Oh, we don't care for right and wrong! We just care for life!"

Many do quietly move on, of course. But with some, what they saw and heard bothers their conscience, so they say something. They find a pubic forum like this, and "tell it to the church"; and if others pooh-pooh their complaints, they'll repeat them, until they feel they're heard.

Now, having said that, maybe I've already been "heard", and am merely projecting my own unmet needs, resentments and anxieties here on this forum onto "the ministry", just as I hold that Witness Lee did with his ministry onto "the church" vis-a-vis "degraded Christianity". But to my credit, I'm not charging $$ for my writing, nor propping up my dead-beat kids via the sale of trinkets on this website.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I would second that. This forum definitely filled in the blanks on a lot of things I didn't know and helped me make sense of my experience in the LRC. It also helped me to move on so that I could "give thanks for all things" and testify "that all things have worked together for good".

I have noticed that the impression is often given that what we experienced in the LRC was a strange thing.

Jehovah Witness — 150 million
7th day Adventist — 25 million
Mormons — 14.8 million

In addition experts estimate that 2.5 million Americans have joined cultic groups and had their kids raised in that environment in the last 30+ years https://www.icsahome.com/elibrary/faqs

The Local Church isn't some pure replacement for "degraded Christianity"; rather, like the JW and SDA and Mormons, it's a poster child for it. Post-Protestant Christianity is full of delusional, self-styled "Seers" and their misled captive flocks. As such, it's worth discussing this group in it's larger context, that of religious, self-appointed "deputy Gods" manipulating gullible and ignorant people for their own personal gain. One can learn a lot - the LC isn't the only unbalanced Christian group out there.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

The Local Church isn't some pure replacement for "degraded Christianity"; rather, like the JW and SDA and Mormons, it's a poster child for it. Post-Protestant Christianity is full of delusional, self-styled "Seers" and their misled captive flocks. As such, it's worth discussing this group in it's larger context, that of religious, self-appointed "deputy Gods" manipulating gullible and ignorant people for their own personal gain. One can learn a lot - the LC isn't the only unbalanced Christian group out there.

So let's share what we learned. I learned a lot and I am thankful for it and I feel I have matured as a Christian as a result. I would say what I wrote on James is a comprehensive discussion on what I learned, how I was helped and how I matured as a result.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So let's share what we learned. I learned a lot and I am thankful for it and I feel I have matured as a Christian as a result.

I used to share on what I've learned; outside the LC. But mostly it wasn't received so I kept my focus here on "escaping the LC mind-set." I left physically, but it took at least 5 years to get the ministry voices out of my head.

Any number of people might benefit to share what we have learned from our experiences. Here is an unbeliever:

Originally Posted by For science

I have a general interest in cults. Personally, I feel that LSM is a cult. Obviously, it is not of the Jim Jones variety. But LSM-type cults are by far the norm, not the Jonestown and Heaven's Gate extremes.

I felt the accounts given by the survivors in this forum were very articulate and educational. Thank you for all the time you spent telling your stories. This is the best cult-survivor forum I have seen so far, among ones that are specific to a given cult.

I am not religious, but I am interested in the science behind religion. By that I mean what biologically goes on in the brains of people who experience religious experiences such as: being saved, getting enlightened etc. Aside from that, I am fascinated by cult psychology and group think that are innate to us all since I feel that understanding these is critical to growing as a civilization. It effects politics, war and even simply being a consumer in the marketplace.

[Drake]

-3

Aron,

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake

I think Matthew 18 is quite applicable to a discussion forum of an abusive Christian sect. Witness Lee poisoned his captive flock by telling them over and over how "Christianity" (every other Christian ministry and group) was "deformed" and "satanic" and "fallen" and "twisted" and "darkened" and so forth. Everyone else was "fallen Babylon"; but the LC was supposedly the pure Church, spotless and waiting for the Bridegroom. God sees no iniquity in Israel [read: the LC].

So when Witness Lee put his sons on the flock and made it a family business, with the chaos that ensued, shouldn't someone say, "Hey, this looks just like Mystery Babylon to me!" Shouldn't we "tell it to the church" a la Matthew 18:17? Yes!

I think forgiveness in vv 21,22 is assumed to be corresponding to repentance. Without repentance, the telling of one or two then becomes a broadcast. (vv 16,17)

I'll never forget the Chinese brother who told the American brother, "You have to watch out for Witness Lee's family". Then he clapped his hand over his mouth & said, "Oh! I shouldn't have said that!"

No, he should have said that. He should have said that, repeatedly, and loudly, until the problem was resolved. If you know of an evil, and don't warn others, you become responsible for the destruction that follows.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I'll never forget the Chinese brother who told the American brother, "You have to watch out for Witness Lee's family". Then he clapped his hand over his mouth & said, "Oh! I shouldn't have said that!"

No, he should have said that. He should have said that, repeatedly, and loudly, until the problem was resolved. If you know of an evil, and don't warn others, you become responsible for the destruction that follows.

That was Samuel Cheng, who was Watchman Nee's brother-in-law, who warned Don Hardy back in the '60's. Brother Don later lamented that the Taiwan brothers, due to dangerously strong influences from their Chinese culture, never warned the American saints of the many dangers associated with the Lee family, especially his sons Phillip and Timothy.

Looking back, we now have half a century of casualties of American saints because that warning was hushed. Think about how many dangers and offenses would have been prevented had Witness Lee heeded this warning.

I often tell others that the only reason we should ever raise our voice is for danger. When others are in danger, we have an obligation to speak up. This forum allows us to "raise our voices."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That was Samuel Cheng, who was Watchman Nee's brother-in-law, who warned Don Hardy back in the '60's. Brother Don later lamented that the Taiwan brothers, due to dangerously strong influences from their Chinese culture, never warned the American saints of the many dangers associated with the Lee family, especially his sons Phillip and Timothy.

Looking back, we now have half a century of casualties of American saints because that warning was hushed. Think about how many dangers and offenses would have been prevented had Witness Lee heeded this warning.

I often tell others that the only reason we should ever raise our voice is for danger. When others are in danger, we have an obligation to speak up. This forum allows us to "raise our voices."

Some are intimating that we are facing God's judgment, for judging our brother, and "God's humble bondslave" at that. I would say rather we would be judged if we knew something was wrong, and kept our mouths shut. Our experiences are for something. Let's not pretend they never happened.

And no, I didn't lose money on Timothy Lee's Daystar, but others did, and testified. I also wasn't groped by Philip Lee, but others were, and it has been covered on this forum.

Witness Lee wasn't qualified to be elder in a local assembly, per Titus 1:6. Am I "wallowing in gall" to bring this up? If someone had brought this up, and Witness Lee was properly demoted, I wouldn't have to. Nobody did, and he wasn't, so I bring it up.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I think forgiveness in vv 21,22 is assumed to be corresponding to repentance. Without repentance, the telling of one or two then becomes a broadcast. (vv 16,17)

Aron,

70x7 indicates there is no true repentance... the ownership falls to the offended.. in this case Peter who probably had a certain brother in mind and was keeping track thinking 7 offenses are enough. The Lord corrected that idea.

Secondly, this is not a church. I once had the opportunity to visit Corinth and near the center is a public square with an elevated platform where all civil topics were discussed. It is highly probable this is the spot that Paul also spoke to the unbelievers and the public as was his practice. This forum is like that place. That was not the church and neither is this chat forum. Even though the Church in Corinth had awful problems Paul did not deal with them from that platform.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

70x7 indicates there is no true repentance...

Dumbest thing I ever heard.

With the leaders at LSM, however, we never even got a phony repentance.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

I once had the opportunity to visit Corinth and near the center is a public square with an elevated platform where all civil topics were discussed.

While I was in the LC's, I only knew of one brother who visited Greece, studying the Greek language.

I also only knew of one brother who ever spoke of kundalini spirits related to glossa.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

LSM with her Blendeds demand forgiveness from others they have offended, but refuse to repent to these ones. They banish brothers, yet refuse to hear them.

• Consider Jane Anderson. The Blendeds refused to even acknowledge her.
• Consider Steve Isitt. Chief Blended Ron Kangas called him a "Man Of Death," without even hearing him.
• Consider Titus Chu. He was condemned and quarantined at the Whistler ITERO in absentia.

Obviously you are going to interpret Matthew 18 differently. And you missed v.17, "If the [Blendeds] refuse to hear, tell it to the church."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSM with her Blendeds demand forgiveness from others they have offended, but refuse to repent to these ones. They banish brothers, yet refuse to hear them.

I made the point also from 2 Corinthians 5. Where is the reconciliation with this group? Where is the "ministry of reconciliation"? Who do they ever forgive?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I made the point also from 2 Corinthians 5. Where is the reconciliation with this group? Where is the "ministry of reconciliation"? Who do they ever forgive?

Au contraire, they have become the "ministry of condemnation" written on tablets of stone by a single publisher. 2 Corinthians 3

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

-3

Aron,

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake

A teacher of the word is subject to a much stricter judgement.

Think of the hypocrisy, WL wrote a biography of Watchman Nee, yet if others also write biographies that are less flattering they are "airing their grievances in public". If that were true you set yourself up as judge to write history.

Witness Lee also set himself forth as an example. If he can give his life as an example to others then it is right that others can also discuss his life and example. You can't discuss Witness Lee's life without discussing LSM and the publication policy that affected all saints and was the basis to excommunicate Titus Chu.

Also the portion you quote is in context. The person went to them and told them their sin. Now there are two possible responses, they refused to hear, in which case you move on to tell it to others and ultimately to the church. The other possibility is that they do hear you and beg forgiveness. If that happens there are two possibilities, the person forgives them or else they are self righteous and refuse. This chapter is balanced. If you seek out the person who sinned and they repent you are obligated to forgive them just as Christ forgave you. If they refuse to hear you then you are obligated to ultimately tell it to the church.