Personally, I feel that LSM is a cult.

I have a general interest in cults. Personally, I feel that LSM is a cult. Obviously, it is not of the Jim Jones variety. But LSM-type cults are by far the norm, not the Jonestown and Heaven's Gate extremes.

I felt the accounts given by the survivors in this forum were very articulate and educational. Thank you for all the time you spent telling your stories. This is the best cult-survivor forum I have seen so far, among ones that are specific to a given cult.

I am not religious, but I am interested in the science behind religion. By that I mean what biologically goes on in the brains of people who experience religious experiences such as: being saved, getting enlightened etc. Aside from that, I am fascinated by cult psychology and group think that are innate to us all since I feel that understanding these is critical to growing as a civilization. It effects politics, war and even simply being a consumer in the marketplace.

I encourage people to look up studies on Psilocybin, LSD and other psychedelics and compare the user accounts with your own religious experiences. While integral to religion at large, cults especially exploit mystical experiences and are generally better at inducing them as well.

These can be obtained non-pharmaceutically by chanting (seems to be employed by Lee churches, but otherwise common in eastern religions), meditating, breath control etc; and while people don't assume supernatural causation when they deliberately attain it by chemical help, they strongly assume divine causation when it is incidental.

[ZNPaaneah]

I have read up on these studies. The experiences are quite different from any experience I have had. These experiences let people see how they are one with the universe and one with each other. The thought is that the brain has to construct its concept of self and these drugs erase that. But the extensive description of these experiences are nothing like my experiences of Christ. Likewise I am not aware of any experience I had in the church that was induced by "chanting".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Most Westerners know no better and would make these ridiculous claims that prayer in the recovery is chanting - listen, many members in the recovery come from Eastern background, SE Asian, Indian, Taiwanese, Japanese - they know what chanting is from their cultures. There is no comparison between Eastern chanting and chanting in the recovery. A side by side comparison would be able to tell the difference.

Mat_6:7* But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I remember whole meetings of just calling on the Lord. It's clearly vain repetition ... yet it might not be so vain, as it's crying out to God like He is far far away ... and needs conjuring.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Mat_6:7* But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
I remember whole meetings of just calling on the Lord. It's clearly vain repetition ... yet it might not be so vain, as it's crying out to God like He is far far away ... and needs conjuring.

If a person is calling upon a god, that is not called conjuring that is called invocation.

Jesus taught us to always pray and never give up.

I think it is better to pray too much than to pray too little.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by For science

These can be obtained non-pharmaceutically by chanting (seems to be employed by Lee churches, but otherwise common in eastern religions), meditating, breath control etc; and while people don't assume supernatural causation when they deliberately attain it by chemical help, they strongly assume divine causation when it is incidental.

Most Westerners know no better and would make these ridiculous claims that prayer in the recovery is chanting - listen, many members in the recovery come from Eastern background, SE Asian, Indian, Taiwanese, Japanese - they know what chanting is from their cultures. There is no comparison between Eastern chanting and chanting in the recovery. A side by side comparison would be able to tell the difference.

In contrast, those in Western Christianity don't know the difference between European paganism (Christmas etc) and Judaism. Equally, anyone could say that Trump's podium speeches referencing "God" in them are just like the prayers of Pope Francis, or the speeches of the KKK or Hitler are just like the Evening Prayer in the Sistine Chapel. That's why your comparisons are just as stupid.

If you want a more eye-opening view of how even Western Christianity is mixed with Eastern religions and paganism, start with the book "pagan Christianity" by Viola and Barna, and leave the prayers of the local church alone.

Do you have any first-hand experience of calling upon the Lord Jesus?

If not, then I would encourage you to try it, for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, see how you feel afterwards. Do it "for science"

[UntoHim]

Good job Mr E! I didn't think that even you had it in you.

A Pope reference, a KKK mention and a Hitler blast all in the same post. And you even topped it off with an "Evening Prayer in the Sistine Chapel". What, no comparing Western Christianity with the 911 terrorists? How bout Billy Graham being the anti-Christ?

Good luck on For science coming on board to join in on this nonsense. I wouldn't blame him if he just sat on the benches.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Mat_6:7* But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I remember whole meetings of just calling on the Lord. It's clearly vain repetition ... yet it might not be so vain, as it's crying out to God like He is far far away ... and needs conjuring.

It's only VAIN repetition when the heart and the mouth are not connected with the only true God.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Most Westerners know no better and would make these ridiculous claims that prayer in the recovery is chanting - listen, many members in the recovery come from Eastern background, SE Asian, Indian, Taiwanese, Japanese - they know what chanting is from their cultures. There is no comparison between Eastern chanting and chanting in the recovery. A side by side comparison would be able to tell the difference.

In contrast, those in Western Christianity don't know the difference between European paganism (Christmas etc) and Judaism. Equally, anyone could say that Trump's podium speeches referencing "God" in them are just like the prayers of Pope Francis, or the speeches of the KKK or Hitler are just like the Evening Prayer in the Sistine Chapel. That's why your comparisons are just as stupid.

Lot's of Trump-hate in your heart bro. Isn't that worse than vain repetition? Perhaps your country now has tariffs placed on your exports?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lot's of Trump-hate in your heart bro. Isn't that worse than vain repetition? Perhaps your country now has tariffs placed on your exports?

Trump's tariffs aren't doing you much good from what I read. It will never work because Chinese can wrap Wontons faster than Trump can ban them.

[Evangelical]

It is somewhat hypocritical if not ignorant for "For Science" to associate chanting only with Eastern religions. Chanting has been practiced in Catholicism for centuries, and also the KKK, and at Trump rallies "America first.. America first"..

[Evangelical]

https://www.gotquestions.org/Christi...-chanting.html

In conclusion, chanting, as a form of expression, is not, in itself, evil. A chant is like a song or a prayer. Its rightness or wrongness depends on the purpose of the chant, the subject of the chant, and the motive of the mind, heart, and voice producing the chant.

Let's evaluate the rightness or wrongness of "chanting" in the recovery using the 3 criteria listed in the gotquestions article:

Purpose - to contact the Lord
Subject - the Lord Jesus Christ
Motive of the mind, heart and voice - to contact the Lord

Conclusion: Chanting in the local churches is not wrong.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

https://www.gotquestions.org/Christi...-chanting.html

In conclusion, chanting, as a form of expression, is not, in itself, evil. A chant is like a song or a prayer. Its rightness or wrongness depends on the purpose of the chant, the subject of the chant, and the motive of the mind, heart, and voice producing the chant.

Let's evaluate the rightness or wrongness of "chanting" in the recovery using the 3 criteria listed in the gotquestions article:

Purpose - to contact the Lord
Subject - the Lord Jesus Christ
Motive of the mind, heart and voice - to contact the Lord

Conclusion: Chanting in the local churches is not wrong.

True, the Lord condemned "vain repetition" not "repetition".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is somewhat hypocritical if not ignorant for "For Science" to associate chanting only with Eastern religions. Chanting has been practiced in Catholicism for centuries, and also the KKK, and at Trump rallies "America first.. America first"..

Don't forget college football games ...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's only VAIN repetition when the heart and the mouth are not connected with the only true God.

Thinking back I can now see why we had calling on the Lord meetings. The elder pushed the Spirit out of the meetings by seeding the meetings with 14 brothers, to steer it.

So our calling on the Lord meetings weren't vain. God was far away. We were calling out of desperation.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Purpose - to contact the Lord
Subject - the Lord Jesus Christ
Motive of the mind, heart and voice - to contact the Lord

Conclusion: Chanting in the local churches is not wrong.

Why don't you go back and watch that highly publicized Whistler ITERO Quarantine of Titus Chu. After an hour of Chu-bashing over clean sheets and other "heretical" practices, all attendants were told to stand and chant "O Lord Jesus" repeatedly.

How vain was that? Mouthing holy words with an unholy heart? A staged event to make it appear like all these elders from around the world were engaged, supportive, and still awake.

Remember the Lord's harsh rebuke. "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away." At best, this showy display by an audience of LC leaders was nothing more than a "7th inning stretch."

When demands come from the podium to "rise up and call on the Lord," it takes a massive stretch of imagination to consider this an attempt to "contact the Lord."

Apostle Paul exhorted us in II Tm 2.22 to "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart." Didn't see any of that at Whistler.

Don't believe me? Just look at their faces. What a sham!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If not, then I would encourage you to try it, for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, see how you feel afterwards. Do it "for science"

Bahahahaha ... really? Try it "for 5 minutes, 10 minutes?"

But first For science, read up on the Cargo Cults, so you can get everything just right, before that cargo will come. It's a magic spell. Like saying Beetlejuice three times.

How do you like that bro Untohim? Now we've got "Cargo Cults" & "Beetlejuice," on this thread. What else can we add? You don't want to know. But For science might get a kick out of it. If he ever shows up.

I posted earlier when lurkers were specifically invited to post, *even as guests*. I made a passing post, but I did not expect that a whole thread would be created. I am not looking to become a member or to participate in a whole discussion. Please don't find this as rude.

But to answer some questions, I consider it chanting as per the Oxford Dictionary.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/chant
chant. verb. say or shout repeatedly in a sing-song tone.

I am an Easterner typing from the East. I do know what chanting is quite well. I did not imply that chanting makes a cult, but that it is just one of many techniques used, both in religion and cults. However, I considered LSM a cult, based on my comparisons to other cults I do know from around me, all of them eastern. This is the sense I got when I unexpectedly attended an LSM feast and talked to people there.

I don't have anything to argue based on psychedelics beyond the state of science. Just go to Google Scholar and look up the top results on psilocybin & LSD in spiritual experiences. I don't have a personal opinion, but I read them as the scientific community considering these experiences as plain biology, not least bit suspected to be supernatural in origin. If you interpret the papers differently, that's up to you.

One thing to add though, reduction in sense of self and union with the world is just one aspect. People report several other very distinctly religious perceptions (sense of sacredness, truth conviction, angels, god etc) in their trips as well as other perceptions that are commonly given in religious accounts (eg. vivid colors and other sensory perceptions, altered sense of time, out of body experiences etc).

[awareness]

Nice to see you back For science. I can be pretty dense, when I put my mind to it. I wouldn't admit that I was in a cult til it got right up in my face. Then I couldn't deny it.

Maybe it was the LSD I took back when I was a hippie, before the local church. That's what led me to the LC in the first place. So watch out. LSD can be dangerous.

You see, I found something very profound on LSD. I called it God. In fact, I ended up out on the front porch, naked, shouting : I FOUND GOD.

But as the the trip continued, it turned very pensive, and introspective. I realized that I couldn't tell others that I found God, but it requires LSD.

So after that trip I decided I had to get serious about it, and find that experience without artificial means. It resulted in a convoluted journey from Detroit Michigan to California, to join the Rosicrucians. But they rejected me. Then me, and about a dozen other hippie friends from Detroit bumped into the LC in Santa Cruz. It didn't seem like a cult back then.

But as I said, I'm dense. It took me 10 years to figure that out. I'm glad it didn't take that long for you to figure it out.

LSD & the local church experiences -- both -- were life changing events in my life.

And ... Turns out that, "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out" was culture changing. That's why just one hit of LSD will get you 5 yrs in Federal pen, here in America.

Thanks for dropping in For science.

Your post left below :
-------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by For science

I posted earlier when lurkers were specifically invited to post, *even as guests*. I made a passing post, but I did not expect that a whole thread would be created. I am not looking to become a member or to participate in a whole discussion. Please don't find this as rude.

But to answer some questions, I consider it chanting as per the Oxford Dictionary.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/chant
chant. verb. say or shout repeatedly in a sing-song tone.

I am an Easterner typing from the East. I do know what chanting is quite well. I did not imply that chanting makes a cult, but that it is just one of many techniques used, both in religion and cults. However, I considered LSM a cult, based on my comparisons to other cults I do know from around me, all of them eastern. This is the sense I got when I unexpectedly attended an LSM feast and talked to people there.

I don't have anything to argue based on psychedelics beyond the state of science. Just go to Google Scholar and look up the top results on psilocybin & LSD in spiritual experiences. I don't have a personal opinion, but I read them as the scientific community considering these experiences as plain biology, not least bit suspected to be supernatural in origin. If you interpret the papers differently, that's up to you.

One thing to add though, reduction in sense of self and union with the world is just one aspect. People report several other very distinctly religious perceptions (sense of sacredness, truth conviction, angels, god etc) in their trips as well as other perceptions that are commonly given in religious accounts (eg. vivid colors and other sensory perceptions, altered sense of time, out of body experiences etc).

[OBW]

Cargo cults . . . . I always smile when you bring those up, awareness.

And there is at least a little of that at work in the LC.

But to deal with the topic of the thread, I have to chime in to state that, while I agree, it has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and the general consensus is that just saying the word stops the conversation. It closes the ears of any that you might like to persuade.

Falls under the ad Hitlerum fallacy. Compare something to Hitler or Nazism (or Pol Pot, etc.) and any valid comparison that might be argued are buried behind all of the extreme issues that hang on those terms (that are not relevant in the present argument) are brought to bear and the discussion ends in the lobbing of live grenades.

And it tends to apply to the word "cult."

It is not that there are not valid points to be made, but that the whole of what the word/comparison could bring is presumed to be in play and the argument can no longer be won on that basis.


Argue for the distinct issues of doctrine, teaching, practice, etc., that are worthy of concern and let them each stand on their own — and in concert — to paint the picture of the LC that you feel applies.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Cargo cults . . . . I always smile when you bring those up, awareness.

For me all the credit goes to Marvin Harris and his book, [URL="https://www.amazon.com/Cows-pigs-wars-witches-riddles/dp/0394483383?hvadid=241604949117&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9014633&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14045133655352675159&hvtargid=kwd-493808975&keywords=cows+pigs+wars+and+witches&qid=1540646013&sr=8-1&tag=googhydr-20&ref=sr_1_1"Cows, pigs, wars & witches;: The riddles of culture[/URL]. A book I just stumbled upon at a used bookstore, a few yrs after leaving the LC.

Originally Posted by OBW-Mike

And there is at least a little of that at work in the LC.

There's a lot of it going on in the LC. The very idea of the Recovery is cargo cult thinking ; the idea that if we can only get the church recovered, back to the early pre-corrupted state, God's blessings will pour out upon us, is cargo cult wishful thinking. Same with the recovery being the preparation the of bride, getting 'her' just right, so the coming bridegroom will appear with the boon - the cargo. It's a cargo cult method of thinking.

Is it a carryover from our more primitive ignorant superstitious days, still lingering in our DNA, and hardwired in our nature? Maybe. It's certainly alive and well in many groups, sects, and cults ... not just The Recovery.

I'm not saying the local church IS a cargo cult. It may be a cult, but not that type ; they aren't building bamboo mock setups, to mimic times when the gods delivered the cargo. But looking deeper into what came to be called cargo cults -- their petitioning of the gods, praying, and rituals -- there are similarities.

Originally Posted by OBW-Mike

But to deal with the topic of the thread, I have to chime in to state that, while I agree, it has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and the general consensus is that just saying the word stops the conversation. It closes the ears of any that you might like to persuade.

I'm certainly guilty of saying the cult word ad nauseum. And I've taken a lot of flack for it. But the conversation continues on. And I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I want to warn people about the local church. I want those looking into the local church to see that at least some are calling the local church a cult. Google, btw, reaches down even into Alternative Views. Just this thread's title will work as a warning.

Talking about persuasion. In my early days in the LC I remember that due to a death in the family, I spent the night at my grandmothers house with my Dad. He was frank with me. He thought I was in a cult, and was concerned. It didn't phase me. He didn't convince me. I was certain I wasn't in a cult.

But had there been the internet back when I joined, I would have unquestionably looked into the LC before joining up. And if before I was too soused to the gills with the LC to see it, if I had found people on the internet calling the LC a cult, I would have walked the other way.

Originally Posted by OBW-Mike

Falls under the ad Hitlerum fallacy. Compare something to Hitler or Nazism (or Pol Pot, etc.) and any valid comparison that might be argued are buried behind all of the extreme issues that hang on those terms (that are not relevant in the present argument) are brought to bear and the discussion ends in the lobbing of live grenades.

And it tends to apply to the word "cult."

I get that it's a loaded word. Say it and immediately Jim Jones is pictured in the brain, and Heaven's Gate ; those mass suicides.

Originally Posted by OBW-Mike

It is not that there are not valid points to be made, but that the whole of what the word/comparison could bring is presumed to be in play and the argument can no longer be won on that basis.

Again, I'm not arguing. I'm telling what I saw with my own eyes.

Originally Posted by OBW-Mike

Argue for the distinct issues of doctrine, teaching, practice, etc., that are worthy of concern and let them each stand on their own — and in concert — to paint the picture of the LC that you feel applies.

There's that approach. And it's needed and worthy.

I have explained that the local church is not a hard cult, like dooms day cults, or sex cults. As I see it the LC is a soft cult ; a personality cult, like Scientology. They have L. Ron Hubbard, and the LC has Witness Lee.

Thanks Mike for your thoughtful post, and concern. AND, glad to see you back around again.

Blessings to you brother ...

Harold

[jeff of jesus grace]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thinking back I can now see why we had calling on the Lord meetings. The elder pushed the Spirit out of the meetings by seeding the meetings with 14 brothers, to steer it.

So our calling on the Lord meetings weren't vain. God was far away. We were calling out of desperation.

What group(s) think or believe that God was far away ?

Is LSM considered a cult by the owners/moderators/ members of this forum ?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jeff of jesus grace

What group(s) think or believe that God was far away ?

Is LSM considered a cult by the owners/moderators/ members of this forum ?

I don't. They are an abusive sect. Much better than the Catholic Church.

[aron]

Originally Posted by For science

I am not religious, but I am interested in the science behind religion. By that I mean what biologically goes on in the brains of people who experience religious experiences such as: being saved, getting enlightened etc. Aside from that, I am fascinated by cult psychology and group think that are innate to us all since I feel that understanding these is critical to growing as a civilization. It effects politics, war and even simply being a consumer in the marketplace..

I found belonging. Suddenly I mattered to someone else. I liked that I had value. I had purpose. Suddenly everything made sense. No more unanswered questions. Big Brother and The Hive had all the answers. Security and certainty feel so comfortable to the wanderer. The restlessness, the uncertainty, it all vanished. Wow! Wonderful!

Plus there were all the benefits. A job, housing, food. A spouse waiting in the wings. . .

Eventually, the disconnect between what is said and what is actually done kicks in. For some it takes years. For me it took about 3 years. Then I left.

It wasn't until I came on this forum, that I began to ask questions: what happened? They were so effective at thought-suppression in the group that I rarely asked questions. Only one time that I remember I got into a run-in with leadership. They told us to ignore the poor and widows and orphans, and go for Caucasian college students. Point-blank, no spiritual mumbo-jumbo. . . just "don't waste your time" with those who cannot repay you in this age.

Which to me seemed completely antithetical to the gospels. So I protested to the "trainer". They ignored me and the meeting went on as if I didn't exist. Which to them, I didn't. Suddenly I was thinking independently, and to them was a non-person. I left probably about 8 months after that.

Today, looking back, I can see many glaring contradictions. For example, the founder of the sect, Watchman Nee, had several senior advisors who were women. Today, 100 years later, they won't let women even give a message on Sunday morning because "women can't teach". Yet Watchman Nee's chief editor, Ruth Lee, was a woman! Yet no one says anything today. I'm not sure they even notice. I didn't. They're simply trained, or conditioned, not to notice stuff like that. But when you step outside their circle of reflexivity, all these discrepancies become pretty noticeable, between what we say is real, and what actually happens, or has happened.

[jeff of jesus grace]

Thank you for your testimony of this.
I went to a lc in san diego around 1980 give or take some years, and it was quite helpful, and a young couple in their 30's I think 'took me in' as I needed a place to sleep for a few days en route to an orphanage in Baha Mexico as a volunteer, or on the way back to the Midwest later.

Then in the 90's I visited one in Oklahoma, and only once or twice, because they said as you heard - "we don't help the poor" ....
That is common, btw, amongst many many churches/ groups, not just lc.
But that was all it took to know not to continue 'with' them or trying to at the time - they were seemingly obviously not open to doing what Jesus says throughout Scripture to do every day ....

Originally Posted by aron

I found belonging. Suddenly I mattered to someone else. I liked that I had value. I had purpose. Suddenly everything made sense. No more unanswered questions. Big Brother and The Hive had all the answers. Security and certainty feel so comfortable to the wanderer. The restlessness, the uncertainty, it all vanished. Wow! Wonderful!

Plus there were all the benefits. A job, housing, food. A spouse waiting in the wings. . .

Eventually, the disconnect between what is said and what is actually done kicks in. For some it takes years. For me it took about 3 years. Then I left.

It wasn't until I came on this forum, that I began to ask questions: what happened? They were so effective at thought-suppression in the group that I rarely asked questions. Only one time that I remember I got into a run-in with leadership. They told us to ignore the poor and widows and orphans, and go for Caucasian college students. Point-blank, no spiritual mumbo-jumbo. . . just "don't waste your time" with those who cannot repay you in this age.

Which to me seemed completely antithetical to the gospels. So I protested to the "trainer". They ignored me and the meeting went on as if I didn't exist. Which to them, I didn't. Suddenly I was thinking independently, and to them was a non-person. I left probably about 8 months after that.

Today, looking back, I can see many glaring contradictions. For example, the founder of the sect, Watchman Nee, had several senior advisors who were women. Today, 100 years later, they won't let women even give a message on Sunday morning because "women can't teach". Yet Watchman Nee's chief editor, Ruth Lee, was a woman! Yet no one says anything today. I'm not sure they even notice. I didn't. They're simply trained, or conditioned, not to notice stuff like that. But when you step outside their circle of reflexivity, all these discrepancies become pretty noticeable, between what we say is real, and what actually happens, or has happened.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by jeff of jesus grace

Thank you for your testimony of this.
I went to a lc in san diego around 1980 give or take some years, and it was quite helpful, and a young couple in their 30's I think 'took me in' as I needed a place to sleep for a few days en route to an orphanage in Baha Mexico as a volunteer, or on the way back to the Midwest later.

Then in the 90's I visited one in Oklahoma, and only once or twice, because they said as you heard - "we don't help the poor" ....
That is common, btw, amongst many many churches/ groups, not just lc.
But that was all it took to know not to continue 'with' them or trying to at the time - they were seemingly obviously not open to doing what Jesus says throughout Scripture to do every day ....

That's right Jeff. We didn't help the poor. We only helped ourselves. And that made us spiritually poor and not in the sense that Jesus meant when he said "blessed are the poor". I'm glad I got out of there.

[recoveringCK]

Witness Lee LSM and Local Church / Lord's Recovery would not merit such criticism except they say they do have a hierarchical structure, top down, administered from Anaheim through the LSM, delivered to the local churches through the elders who are authorized to control the saints by acting indirectly through others, appearing to keep their own hands clean, while pretending to be above reproach, all the while stating there is no hierarchy, everything is open, there are no secrets.

The Catholics have the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope and a well known hierarchy with enforcement procedures. Intelligence and military organizations maintain tight compartmentalization. Secret societies are said to tell initiates that the purpose of the organization they are joining is secret. At least they have that level of integrity.

LSM publications say there is no hierarchy, all brothers are equal. BBs and elders openly act humble while engaging in control actions in an indirect way which is kept secret. In all direct personal interactions with the elders they appeared helpful, they appeared to have wisdom, and appeared to know the bible and ministry well.

Then they take strong control actions which contradict stated teachings, separating themselves from the rest of the brothers and sisters, establishing a clergy laity system, the practice of the nicolaitans which God hates while strongly denying it. Anyone who points that out will likely be quarantined. All of this is done while proclaiming they have the truth.

In what way is that not deceptive? Where is their integrity?

They do use strong psychological techniques.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Witness Lee LSM and Local Church / Lord's Recovery would not merit such criticism except they say they do have a hierarchical structure, top down, administered from Anaheim through the LSM, delivered to the local churches through the elders who are authorized to control the saints by acting indirectly through others, appearing to keep their own hands clean, while pretending to be above reproach, all the while stating there is no hierarchy, everything is open, there are no secrets.

The Catholics have the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope and a well known hierarchy with enforcement procedures. Intelligence and military organizations maintain tight compartmentalization. Secret societies are said to tell initiates that the purpose of the organization they are joining is secret. At least they have that level of integrity.

LSM publications say there is no hierarchy, all brothers are equal. BBs and elders openly act humble while engaging in control actions in an indirect way which is kept secret. In all direct personal interactions with the elders they appeared helpful, they appeared to have wisdom, and appeared to know the bible and ministry well.

Then they take strong control actions which contradict stated teachings, separating themselves from the rest of the brothers and sisters, establishing a clergy laity system, the practice of the nicolaitans which God hates while strongly denying it. Anyone who points that out will likely be quarantined. All of this is done while proclaiming they have the truth.

In what way is that not deceptive? Where is their integrity?

They do use strong psychological techniques.

You pretty much nailed it recoveringCK. You must not see The Vision. Cuz when you see The Vision, you're incapable of seeing the reality of Lee's local church recovery movement ; that it's a top down controlling organization ; that it's a cult.