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[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This does get ridiculous. If anyone could be labeled as a "personality cult" it was Obama, surprised Awareness didn't see that.

Dualistic, zero/sum, all-or-nothing thinking seems to be preventing you guys from the simple recognition of the obvious. Both Obama and Trump have their personality cults. As did FDR, JFK and Reagan, Bill Clinton, George W Bush and others.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Dualistic, zero/sum, all-or-nothing thinking seems to be preventing you guys from the simple recognition of the obvious. Both Obama and Trump have their personality cults. As did FDR, JFK and Reagan, Bill Clinton, George W Bush and others.

Apparently the Catholics, Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Orthodox, Pentecostals, Alliance, CoC, and the LC do too!

And this guy zeek has a "dualistic, zero/sum, all-or-nothing thinking" seems to be preventing him from the simple recognition of the obvious concerning W. Lee.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apparently the Catholics, Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Orthodox, Pentecostals, Alliance, CoC, and the LC do too!

And this guy zeek has a "dualistic, zero/sum, all-or-nothing thinking" seems to be preventing him from the simple recognition of the obvious concerning W. Lee.

What do you suppose I don't recognize about Witness Lee?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Oh, is that what I am missing? Didn't realize Awareness had pointed this out in earlier posts a few years back. Just direct me to those posts, thanks.

Because what I thought was obviously ridiculous was the lack of concern about this until Trump came along.

Originally Posted by zeek

What do you suppose I don't recognize about Witness Lee?

In a word -- hypocrisy.

You make these outrageous comments, and the best medicine is to take your own words like a mirror and point them back at you.


But I'm willing to grant you much grace today since you helped to put Rick Scott and Ron DeSantis in office.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In a word -- hypocrisy.

You make these outrageous comments, and the best medicine is to take your own words like a mirror and point them back at you.


But I'm willing to grant you much grace today since you helped to put Rick Scott and Ron DeSantis in office.

So I don't recognize witness Lee's hypocrisy is that what you're trying to say? And I helped Rick Scott and Ron DeSantis how? Or is this just more of your "my team good your team evil" game?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Dualistic, zero/sum, all-or-nothing thinking seems to be preventing you guys from the simple recognition of the obvious. Both Obama and Trump have their personality cults. As did FDR, JFK and Reagan, Bill Clinton, George W Bush and others.

Oh, is that what I am missing? Didn't realize Awareness had pointed this out in earlier posts a few years back. Just direct me to those posts, thanks.

Because what I thought was obviously ridiculous was the lack of concern about this until Trump came along.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Oh, is that what I am missing? Didn't realize Awareness had pointed this out in earlier posts a few years back. Just direct me to those posts, thanks.

Because what I thought was obviously ridiculous was the lack of concern about this until Trump came along.

So you don't think he should have become more concerned about Trump than those other presidents? Cuz I think he should be. I think Trump's divisiveness, nativism, fear-mongering and demagoguery surpasses all those previous guys that I mentioned. Thus the cult of personality around him is more dangerous.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

So you don't think he should have become more concerned about Trump than those other presidents? Cuz I think he should be. I think Trump's divisiveness, nativism, fear-mongering and demagoguery surpasses all those previous guys that I mentioned. Thus the cult of personality around him is more dangerous.

My opinion is that the US is on a path that is not sustainable.

1. We have a govt run by Corporations, particularly Big Oil, which has been willing to get us involved in wars that are not truly about self defense, all with the result that we have run up huge national debts, damaged our reputation around the world, while our leaders spew lies. When you ignore LBJ's fraud to get elected, then it isn't a big leap to see this man is VP who will do anything to get power, signaling a green light to the CIA to go ahead and remove JFK. If you weren't alarmed when we went full boar into Vietnam to develop our weapons manufacturing. IF you weren't alarmed then, what can anyone say, provoking Iraq to start the Gulf war is not a big leap, 911 is predictable, lying about WMD, just par for the course. Trillion dollar wars for oil, doesn't bother you? That all preceded Trump.

Why oh why would would anyone think Trump could get away with some of his most outlandish statements. Perhaps because no one cared about lies, fraud, assassinations, and trillion dollar wars up to this point.

Hmm, Let's see ...

June 12 1994 — OJ Simpson was arrested for the murder of his wife. The most covered crime in American history, 139 days on TV, front page of LA Times for 300 days, covered by 2,237 news outlets. The news media spent $50 billion covering it. Cost to California taxpayers — approximately $10 million. The number of witnesses who died or disappeared — 0.

Likewise with Jon Benet Ramsey. ABC, NBC and CBS did 84 featured stories on this case. The number of witnesses who died or disappeared — 0.

Dec 19, 1998 — Bill Clinton was impeached. Cost to US taxpayers — $7 million, cost by media covering it, $69 million. The number of witnesses who died or disappeared — 0.

Nov 22, 1963 — JFK assassinated. Most horrific assassination in our history and the most dramatic change in national policy. Number of days investigated in public by the media or government — 0. The amount of money spent by the media to investigate it? $8,000. The amount of money paid by main stream media and the government to have it not investigated — $18 billion. The number of witnesses who died or disappeared — 78. The number of American soldiers killed in the fake wars following JFK’s death — 68,750. The number of innocent Vietnamese, Iraqis and others killed 3.5 million. The cost for these fake wars — $4.5+ trillion.

But you say Trump is more dangerous! Wow! Tell me more.

The ultimate goal of propaganda is you take everything for granted and stop asking questions. By that measure Trump has been a total failure, instead of lulling everyone to sleep everyone is stirred up to vote and take part in what is going on. That is why I see him as much less insidious than what took place after JFK was assassinated.

By contrast George Bush was an aw shucks kind of guy, course his brother ran security for 2 of the aircraft used on 911, both of the twin towers, and Dulles Int airport where two of the planes took off from. But hey, conspiracy theories are for lunatics even though the CIA is the a huge organization that by definition all of their jobs are conspiracies. The steel from the building was the evidence, FBI and Homeland security were not allowed to view the evidence instead it was sent to China and destroyed. Tampering and destroying evidence in a murder investigation is a federal crime, but again, hey you are a lunatic for saying anything. Jet fuel burns at 800 degrees F, and steel doesn't hit critical temperature until 2,000 degrees. Besides the hottest temperature achieved in the twin towers was 10 days after the collapse, when the fire department measured temperatures in excess of 2,000 degrees even though jet fuel burns off in 15 minutes, but you know, enough already. The only reasonable explanation for these temperatures is thermite, an explosive used in demolition of steel frame buildings. And of course, none of that explains why building 7 collapsed, in seconds, into its own foundation, symmetrically, at 5 pm, without ever being hit by an airplane. But this is idiotic, why would anyone do this? (Ignoring Larry Silversteins quote on PBS that he gave the order to "pull it" ordering a controlled demolition of the building.) I mean other than getting an excuse for a trillion dollar war into the Middle East, securing the largest oil field and gas field that can be developed outside of the US, and completely revamping our military for drones and robots with a blank check from Congress. Can anyone really believe a nice guy like George Bush who paints pictures could do such a thing? We all know Dick Cheney could, I guess the real question is could someone do this without George knowing? But what would Larry Silverstein's motive be to destroy his own buildings? He had bought this property just a few months earlier for 3+ billion dollars and then got 5+ billion dollars in the insurance payout.

I think Zeek prefers liars that make him feel comfortable, hide the lies better so that he can pretend he isn't agreeing to be lied to, whereas Trump is so transparent and obvious you feel "What, does this guy think I'm an idiot!" Well, yeah.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think Zeek prefers liars that make him feel comfortable, hide the lies better so that he can pretend he isn't agreeing to be lied to, whereas Trump is so transparent and obvious you feel "What, does this guy think I'm an idiot!" Well, yeah.

One last comment. Consider the miracle on the Hudson. In 24 minutes you saw what Americans, doing their jobs, whether the pilot, or the stewardesses, or ferry boat captains, or coast guard, etc. can do. That is not some extraordinary action, that is in fact the level of expertise of your typical Americans in an emergency. They reacted in less than 5 minutes. In that time the plane crashed and three ferries were on location or less than a minute away. It took a total of 24 minutes to save everyone and get them to land safely including several divers from helicopters rescuing people who tried to swim.

Now compare that level of professionalism in an emergency by close to 150 people to the incredible ineptness exhibited in the JFK investigation and the 911 investigation. Anyone who examines these two investigations and compares it to standard protocols and procedures will be shocked at the astounding violations, ineptness, and overall poor behavior by all involved.

[ZNPaaneah]

There has been a deliberate attempt to portray voter fraud as a statistically insignificant factor. However, they have been very deceptive in their use of numbers.

Let's break it down.

In this last election we had 435 congressmen elected, 35 senators and 35 governors. That is slightly over 500 key officials elected. Of those we have 5 very close races. Voter fraud does not take place in elections that are not close, it would be too obvious. So the fact that it doesn't take place in 99% of elections is irrelevant, the issue is if it is taking place in the 1% that are close. No one doubts that these 5 seats are really big. They could give the Democrats a much stronger hold on the house and cut the Republicans lead in the senate to razor thin margins.

Second, a close election means that 0.25% of the vote can make the difference. So then, if 0.001% of the total vote is fraudulent, that would be enough to swing these 5 very close elections. You shouldn't compare the number of fraudulent votes to the total cast, but rather to 1% of the total cast. Then in those elections since they are close you only need 1% of those votes cast to swing them. So really, you should compare the number of fraudulent votes to 1% of 1% or 0.01% of the total votes cast.

However, the pundits are not pointing this out.

Second, they are limiting the discussion to the votes that have been "proven" to be fraudulent. Once again, a very misleading number, and certainly far less than the number of votes "estimated" to be fraudulent. The low number of votes proven to be fraudulent could simply be because the victors are not interested in having an investigation.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

My opinion is that the US is on a path that is not sustainable.

1. We have a govt run by Corporations, particularly Big Oil, which has been willing to get us involved in wars that are not truly about self defense, all with the result that we have run up huge national debts, damaged our reputation around the world, while our leaders spew lies. Trillion dollar wars for oil, doesn't bother you? That all preceded Trump.

Why oh why would would anyone think Trump could get away with some of his most outlandish statements. Perhaps because no one cared about lies, fraud, assassinations, and trillion dollar wars up to this point.

Hmm, Let's see ...

List of conspiracy theories

I think Zeek prefers liars that make him feel comfortable, hide the lies better so that he can pretend he isn't agreeing to be lied to, whereas Trump is so transparent and obvious you feel "What, does this guy think I'm an idiot!" Well, yeah.

I appreciate your perspective. Like too many today, you've lost faith the institutions of free society.

The question is whether the future belongs to the new populists like Donald Trump or to the free societies that began to be built in the 18th century and that have gradually developed and strengthened—with many imperfections and hypocrisies and backsliding—in the 250 years since?

During the Cold War the most important challenges to free societies came from Communism. More recently the most important challenges came from Islamic extremists.

Today, the greatest challenge comes from the "populists". This challenge comes from within. Will the free societies be able to able to survive and thrive against the threat of populism that seeks to divide and destroy it?

The new populism is a scam and a lie that exploits anger and fear to gain power. It has no care for the people it supposedly champions and no respect for them. It will deliver nothing—not only because its leaders are crooks, but because they have no plans except to pad their own pockets.

Since the economic crisis of 2008 and the euro-currency crisis that began in 2010, the so-called populists have won election after election in this country and in Europe. Countries that formerly seemed secure against populism, like Germany, are trending in ominous directions.

But hope is not lost. With the midterm elections, the American electorate set a limit: It looks like the tide is beginning to turn.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I appreciate your perspective. Like too many today, you've lost faith the institutions of free society.

disagree. There will always be liars, cheats, and scam artists. What we need are leaders like TR that can rise above that.

Originally Posted by zeek

The question is whether the future belongs to the new populists like Donald Trump or to the free societies that began to be built in the 18th century and that have gradually developed and strengthened—with many imperfections and hypocrisies and backsliding—in the 250 years since?

Don't agree that this is the question. The question to me is how can a free society survive when they have this huge cancer of the CIA growing in their midst with secret budgets, secret programs, and they laugh at elections and who is "in power".

Originally Posted by zeek

During the Cold War the most important challenges to free societies came from Communism. More recently the most important challenges came from Islamic extremists.

disagree, that is ridiculous. Communism never threatened free societies, that was simply a scam used to scare people to support flawed policies. Likewise with the new bogeyman, Islamic Extremists. These people are responding to atrocities committed by these evil entities -- CIA, Military industrial complex, Big Oil. They are the cause, Islamic extremists are simply the symptom.

Originally Posted by zeek

Today, the greatest challenge comes from the "populists". This challenge comes from within. Will the free societies be able to able to survive and thrive against the threat of populism that seeks to divide and destroy it?

Disagree that this is where the greatest threat is from. Greatest threat is from the disinformation campaigns run by this huge intelligence agencies (Russia, China and the US) and by corporations.

Originally Posted by zeek

The new populism is a scam and a lie that exploits anger and fear to gain power. It has no care for the people it supposedly champions and no respect for them. It will deliver nothing—not only because its leaders are crooks, but because they have no plans except to pad their own pockets.

Anger is an excellent motivator, hence all politicians have used it. Nothing new here. The "abuses" perpetrated by Trump are trivial compared to the abuses perpetrated by the Continental congress. Things are getting better, not worse.

Originally Posted by zeek

Since the economic crisis of 2008 and the euro-currency crisis that began in 2010, the so-called populists have won election after election in this country and in Europe. Countries that formerly seemed secure against populism, like Germany, are trending in ominous directions.

But hope is not lost. With the midterm elections, the American electorate set a limit: It looks like the tide is beginning to turn.

That's funny. You think a Democratic congress will have any influence at all? You seriously think that is a harbinger of the tide beginning to turn?

Climate change is impacting the world. It will be a drag on the Economy and there will be a growing number of climate refugees, growing exponentially year after year. Gang violence in these countries is not the cause, it is a symptom of economic and political collapse.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

disagree. There will always be liars, cheats, and scam artists. What we need are leaders like TR that can rise above that.



Don't agree that this is the question. The question to me is how can a free society survive when they have this huge cancer of the CIA growing in their midst with secret budgets, secret programs, and they laugh at elections and who is "in power".



disagree, that is ridiculous. Communism never threatened free societies, that was simply a scam used to scare people to support flawed policies. Likewise with the new bogeyman, Islamic Extremists. These people are responding to atrocities committed by these evil entities -- CIA, Military industrial complex, Big Oil. They are the cause, Islamic extremists are simply the symptom.



Disagree that this is where the greatest threat is from. Greatest threat is from the disinformation campaigns run by this huge intelligence agencies (Russia, China and the US) and by corporations.



Anger is an excellent motivator, hence all politicians have used it. Nothing new here. The "abuses" perpetrated by Trump are trivial compared to the abuses perpetrated by the Continental congress. Things are getting better, not worse.



That's funny. You think a Democratic congress will have any influence at all? You seriously think that is a harbinger of the tide beginning to turn?

Climate change is impacting the world. It will be a drag on the Economy and there will be a growing number of climate refugees, growing exponentially year after year. Gang violence in these countries is not the cause, it is a symptom of economic and political collapse.

I understand. You're looking forward to the Apocalypse. The idea that a few good people can turn the situation around seems pretty ludicrous to you. The only thing I can say is that the biggest problems we have are the ones we've caused as humans. So perhaps if it's not too late we can turn the situation around.