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[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I appreciate your perspective. Like too many today, you've lost faith the institutions of free society.

disagree. There will always be liars, cheats, and scam artists. What we need are leaders like TR that can rise above that.

Originally Posted by zeek

The question is whether the future belongs to the new populists like Donald Trump or to the free societies that began to be built in the 18th century and that have gradually developed and strengthened—with many imperfections and hypocrisies and backsliding—in the 250 years since?

Don't agree that this is the question. The question to me is how can a free society survive when they have this huge cancer of the CIA growing in their midst with secret budgets, secret programs, and they laugh at elections and who is "in power".

Originally Posted by zeek

During the Cold War the most important challenges to free societies came from Communism. More recently the most important challenges came from Islamic extremists.

disagree, that is ridiculous. Communism never threatened free societies, that was simply a scam used to scare people to support flawed policies. Likewise with the new bogeyman, Islamic Extremists. These people are responding to atrocities committed by these evil entities -- CIA, Military industrial complex, Big Oil. They are the cause, Islamic extremists are simply the symptom.

Originally Posted by zeek

Today, the greatest challenge comes from the "populists". This challenge comes from within. Will the free societies be able to able to survive and thrive against the threat of populism that seeks to divide and destroy it?

Disagree that this is where the greatest threat is from. Greatest threat is from the disinformation campaigns run by this huge intelligence agencies (Russia, China and the US) and by corporations.

Originally Posted by zeek

The new populism is a scam and a lie that exploits anger and fear to gain power. It has no care for the people it supposedly champions and no respect for them. It will deliver nothing—not only because its leaders are crooks, but because they have no plans except to pad their own pockets.

Anger is an excellent motivator, hence all politicians have used it. Nothing new here. The "abuses" perpetrated by Trump are trivial compared to the abuses perpetrated by the Continental congress. Things are getting better, not worse.

Originally Posted by zeek

Since the economic crisis of 2008 and the euro-currency crisis that began in 2010, the so-called populists have won election after election in this country and in Europe. Countries that formerly seemed secure against populism, like Germany, are trending in ominous directions.

But hope is not lost. With the midterm elections, the American electorate set a limit: It looks like the tide is beginning to turn.

That's funny. You think a Democratic congress will have any influence at all? You seriously think that is a harbinger of the tide beginning to turn?

Climate change is impacting the world. It will be a drag on the Economy and there will be a growing number of climate refugees, growing exponentially year after year. Gang violence in these countries is not the cause, it is a symptom of economic and political collapse.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

disagree. There will always be liars, cheats, and scam artists. What we need are leaders like TR that can rise above that.



Don't agree that this is the question. The question to me is how can a free society survive when they have this huge cancer of the CIA growing in their midst with secret budgets, secret programs, and they laugh at elections and who is "in power".



disagree, that is ridiculous. Communism never threatened free societies, that was simply a scam used to scare people to support flawed policies. Likewise with the new bogeyman, Islamic Extremists. These people are responding to atrocities committed by these evil entities -- CIA, Military industrial complex, Big Oil. They are the cause, Islamic extremists are simply the symptom.



Disagree that this is where the greatest threat is from. Greatest threat is from the disinformation campaigns run by this huge intelligence agencies (Russia, China and the US) and by corporations.



Anger is an excellent motivator, hence all politicians have used it. Nothing new here. The "abuses" perpetrated by Trump are trivial compared to the abuses perpetrated by the Continental congress. Things are getting better, not worse.



That's funny. You think a Democratic congress will have any influence at all? You seriously think that is a harbinger of the tide beginning to turn?

Climate change is impacting the world. It will be a drag on the Economy and there will be a growing number of climate refugees, growing exponentially year after year. Gang violence in these countries is not the cause, it is a symptom of economic and political collapse.

I understand. You're looking forward to the Apocalypse. The idea that a few good people can turn the situation around seems pretty ludicrous to you. The only thing I can say is that the biggest problems we have are the ones we've caused as humans. So perhaps if it's not too late we can turn the situation around.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I understand. You're looking forward to the Apocalypse. The idea that a few good people can turn the situation around seems pretty ludicrous to you. The only thing I can say is that the biggest problems we have are the ones we've caused as humans. So perhaps if it's not too late we can turn the situation around.

Not what I said or what I meant.

I think that if you look back at human history there has been a tremendous improvement in 6,000 years, in 2,000 years, even in 200 years. The idea that Trump is some kind of horrible digression is ridiculous.

But I do feel it is ridiculous to think the US government led by the Democrats are going to legislate us out of the catastrophe that Climate change is. Look at what happened to Puerto Rico from Maria. That is what will be happening in Mainland US in the next 10 years.

Whenever you see people in these disaster zones they talk about rebuilding. That is denial.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Not what I said or what I meant.

I think that if you look back at human history there has been a tremendous improvement in 6,000 years, in 2,000 years, even in 200 years. The idea that Trump is some kind of horrible digression is ridiculous.

Not "digression"...regression.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But I do feel it is ridiculous to think the US government led by the Democrats are going to legislate us out of the catastrophe that Climate change is. Look at what happened to Puerto Rico from Maria. That is what will be happening in Mainland US in the next 10 years.Whenever you see people in these disaster zones they talk about rebuilding. That is denial.

Well, I guarantee the Democrats want to do more to stop Climate change than the science denying Republicans. https://www.ecowatch.com/midterm-res...618493194.html

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Not "digression"...regression.

Seriously?! You think the US has returned to a former, less developed state? I haven't. I don't know anyone who has. Have you? Barring some completely unforeseen revelation, even the worst case currently being considered Trump will not be any worse than Ray Nagin. So where is the regression? Ray Nagin had far worse racist comments than anything Trump said ("New Orleans needs to be a chocolate city"), and convicted on many counts of fraud and corruption, all the time blaming his accusers far more than any "fake news" claims by Trump.

If you believe that Trump represents a "less developed state" than Obama that is not regression unless you feel that during Obama's presidency Trump and his supporters were in a more developed state but have since regressed. I don't think they have changed all that much, and if they have changed it hasn't been a regression.

Or you have to believe that Obama supporters have switched to becoming Trump supporters. I don't believe that at all. No evidence, certainly not in Brooklyn.

Or you have to believe that laws in this country have changed. Now if you said that after 911 with the passing of the Patriot Act that was a regression, I would not disagree. But, pray tell, what laws have changed that you can point to as a clear, undeniable regression in our civilization? If you said this after the JFK assassination when our foreign policy was completely changed, I would again not disagree. But I have not seen anything like that with Trump.

The only things that I can see Trump really having a big influence on:

1. Got a lot more people to get out and vote.
2. Got the country riled up to say we are not for being abusive towards immigrants and refugees.
3. Advanced the peace process with N. Korea
4. Had a very favorable impact on US economy.
5. Has strengthened our relationship with Israel
6. Might have a very good impact on trade treaties, especially with China.
7. So far has not gotten us into a war.
8. Picked two Supreme court justices, both were highly qualified.

What is it that I am missing that you see as this great "regression" in our civilization?

Originally Posted by zeek

Well, I guarantee the Democrats want to do more to stop Climate change than the science denying Republicans. https://www.ecowatch.com/midterm-res...618493194.html

Sure, like Al Gore. What exactly did the Clinton Administration do that had any real impact on reversing Climate change? In my experience the Democrats tell the voters what they want to hear, and then just do the bidding of the corporations, the Republicans are more honest in that way, they don't pretend they care or will actually do anything.