Discernment of spirits

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, the only tests we should apply are 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

1 John 2:20 is not about gut feeling. The true and genuine anointing will always affirm the tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

This is even alluded to in 1 John 2:22 :

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Do not use feelings to discern the Spirit - that is the error of the Pentecostals, who use music which stimulates emotions. That is how the Kundalini spirit can exist.They do not feel that the Spirit is present unless they have some sort of feeling. Likewise, we should not use the mind/thoughts to discern the Spirit e.g. "today I had a pleasant thought of Christ and that means I have the Spirit of God", or "today I had a negative evil thought and that means I don't have the Spirit". Spiritual things can only be discerned by spiritual means. The tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 are spiritual tests, and do not rely upon thought or feeling - these tests can not only discern the Spirit but they can help avoid all kinds of error.

Witness Lee built his empire by playing on the feelings of others.

Above all, remember that what you read on this forum is the opinion or interpretation of others. Don't rely on someone who speaks as though he knows everything when in fact, it's only his opinion. He has no authoritative interpretation of the bible, just like WLee didn't.

[Trapped]

I also cannot agree that Evangelical's OP presents the complete way to discern spirits. All three verse passages cited refer to discernment by what is spoken (confessing the name); however, as several others have said, there are other verses that state there will be some who say "Lord, Lord" and yet the Lord never knew them. I think we also all know there are many out there using the Lord's name and saying the phrases cited in the Bible as a test for discerning spirits, and yet they are false prophets.

I would say rather that the OP presents a test that is a first-line of defense. Obviously if someone cannot even say "Jesus is Lord" then that alone is ample evidence that can be used for discernment. But if they can say "Jesus is Lord", it seems there is further testing needed for full and proper discernment.

But what is that further testing?

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To change brief direction about "feeling". I have heard for decades about not "going with our feelings". However, I would say one of the most oft-repeated phrases among brothers in the lead is "How you do feel about such-and-such matter?" "Before I can do anything I need to get the brothers' feeling."

Bizarre for the "regular" saints to be told to avoid their feeling but the ones making the decisions are asked about their feeling constantly.

[JJ]

God’s word is that further test, as ZNP pointed us to in Hebrews 4:12 and Proverbs (see Proverbs 2 and 4 links in my last post).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by JJ

God’s word is that further test, as ZNP pointed us to in Hebrews 4:12 and Proverbs (see Proverbs 2 and 4 links in my last post).

It's good advice for other things but for testing spirits it can lead to the wrong conclusion. Strictly speaking they are not tests of spirits but sound advice for right living. For example, Proverbs 2 is about what is right and wrong "Thus you will walk in the ways of the good and keep to the paths of the righteous". Who are the righteous in these says other than those who keep the Law religiously? Who are the wicked other than those who break the Jewish law?

So a test which employs Jewish Old Testament law is not a good test of spirits. Without 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 , application of Proverbs 2 for testing the spirit could lead us to the conclusion that a devout and religious Jew has God's Spirit. Probably Jews concluded that even Christ was a sinner and unrighteous because he befriended the wicked, contrary to the advice of Proverbs 2.

1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 say nothing about using God's word as a "further test". For example, 1 John 4:2-3 does not say "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, now use the Scripture to test it further". There's nothing to indicate that the tests are incomplete.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

To change brief direction about "feeling". I have heard for decades about not "going with our feelings". However, I would say one of the most oft-repeated phrases among brothers in the lead is "How you do feel about such-and-such matter?" "Before I can do anything I need to get the brothers' feeling."

Bizarre for the "regular" saints to be told to avoid their feeling but the ones making the decisions are asked about their feeling constantly.

Amazing how that works, eh?

I have often said that my biggest failure in the LC's was to trust "the brothers" unreservedly.

Supposedly they "cared for our soul," (using Heb 13.17 to their advantage,) actually most elders I knew just did what HQ's told them to do.

[Evangelical]

The problem with the "we need further tests" view is that 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 do not describe any further tests, nor do they say that these tests are not complete. It is only common sense that John or Paul would have said that the tests are not complete if they were.

I believe by people saying the tests are inadequate they mean that they are inadequate for testing the false notions constructed in Christianity about spirits. In Christianity they invent "spirits" or angels for everything, both good and bad, and then test them against criteria which is not found in the bible.

Regarding feelings, there are feelings from the natural man and there are feelings in the Spirit. "avoid your feelings" means avoid your fallen feelings, and "ask about their feeling" means ask about the feeling in the Spirit. For someone who understands the difference between the flesh and the spirit there can be no contradiction.

[Evangelical]

I understand the different facets of salvation.

However for the topic concerned about who has the Spirit and who does not, who has the genuine anointing and who does not, I think it suffices to constrain our discussion to the salvation of justification by faith alone without works.

You seem to be talking about tests for other aspects of salvation - test of sanctification, test of obedience, test of a faithful servant. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 mentions nothing about those.

If we are faced with someone prophesying regularly in the meeting in the Lord's name, we first should apply 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 to see whether they have the genuine Spirit of God through what the mouth confesses of what the heart believes, before we look at how obedient they are to a set of outward criteria. Their message may even be doctrinally correct, however the anointing may be absent.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The problem with the "we need further tests" view is that 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 do not describe any further tests, nor do they say that these tests are not complete. It is only common sense that John or Paul would have said that the tests are not complete if they were.

There are further tests contained in 1 John 4. Read v 6 and 20-21 https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/1jo/4/1/s_1163001

v 6 includes "he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." So anyone not listening to the apostles' preaching (what is recorded in the Bible) is not from God.
V 21 includes "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar

Evangelical seems to be alone in forcing us to use only three verses for discernment of what one says and is foolhardy to exclude the Bible and the old testament in particular! Dangerous! That's what got a lot of us into trouble in TLR. Run from such talk.

I'm done arguing this point any further.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by JJ

There are further tests contained in 1 John 4. Read v 6 and 20-21 https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/1jo/4/1/s_1163001

v 6 includes "he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." So anyone not listening to the apostles' preaching (what is recorded in the Bible) is not from God.
V 21 includes "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar

v 6 is not really a "further test" it is part of 1 John 4:2-6. It surely refers to that already mentioned in 1 John 4:2-3. If we reject the apostle's first-hand testimony of 1 John 4:2-3 about Christ's having a human body then we have the spirit of error.

Originally Posted by JJ

Evangelical seems to be alone in forcing us to use only three verses for discernment of what one says and is foolhardy to exclude the Bible and the old testament in particular! Dangerous! That's what got a lot of us into trouble in TLR. Run from such talk.

I'm done arguing this point any further.

Using the OT for discernment of the New Testament Spirit of Christ is a bad idea and might lead one to works-based salvation and works-based discernment (the Pharisees evaluated Christ's and the disciple's works against the Old Testament to discern that He was not the Messiah). If the Old Testament was to be used in this case then John and Paul would have referred us to the OT in 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15. They didn't.

Using the Old Testament for spiritual discernment will lead one down the path of Judaism, not Christianity.

Using "the Bible for discernment" is a cover for meaning we pick and choose whatever criteria we like from the New or Old Testaments, and use that to evaluate a person's spirit or ministry. This is none other than a self-driven method of discernment which is quite different to the simple tests proposed by the apostle Paul and John, which served them well in the problems with the gnostics and Judaizers in the early church.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Another LSM tactic: Keep fighting until the other guy walks away, and then declare victory.

People walk away when they run out of bible verses. He first presented unrelated scripture in Hebrews and Proverbs, then realized verse 6 might be "another test" even though it is part of the battery of verses I am presenting. Like an Old Testament Jew he would argue for the use of the OT for discerning Christ. Nowhere do John or Paul use the Old Testament for discernment.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

People walk away when they run out of bible verses. He first presented unrelated scripture in Hebrews and Proverbs, then realized verse 6 might be "another test" even though it is part of the battery of verses I am presenting. Like an Old Testament Jew he would argue for the use of the OT for discerning Christ.

Nowhere do John or Paul use the Old Testament for discernment.

Jesus Himself used the O.T. for discernment. Are you crazy? "Man shall not live by bread alone ..."

The O.T. is the foundation for the New. Even Lee said as much.

Have you left the LC like we told you to? Seems like you been quoting "Got Questions" a lot lately.

[byHismercy]

Ok, I have something to say about discernment of spirits. I have followed this conversation with a lot of confusion....I don't fully understand where Evang. is coming from or why he is insisting on limiting us to the verses of his choosing....forgive me if I am misunderstanding, Evan...

But regarding actual experience of discernment of spirits, the first ( I know now) I had it was at the moment of my conversion, the first I prayed, confessed my sin, repented and invited Jesus to come to me, be my Savior. By the grace of God I happened to have this moment in a streaming crowd of humanity, about 5,000 people who were flowing around the stadium that night, heading for the bart subway in Oakland, CA. All of them, including myself, hopped up on drug of every sort. When I received Christ that night, He gave me the Holy Spirit....and the camraderie of deadheads, music and drug loving people, suddenly vanished. The same sweet crowd that I had wandered amongst all night turned. It was ugly. There was jeering, food thrown at us, it became so nasty so fast. The Lord Jesus showed me right then that the culture I was wrapped up in was a facade....friendly faces became hateful sneers and I knew that the truth is, drugs are the Enemies' realm. The peace, love, acceptance was a lie of Satan.

Shortly after this, He made His presence known to me through a miraculous help....He didn't just save me into His kingdom then, but He actually saved me from my earthly dilemma....I was physically lost and I became found. This immediately after the sweet christian witness, whom He sent out that night, who invited me to pray and receive Jesus as my Savior, asked for a resolution to my situation. Literally the second after she wrapped up her prayer for me and said Amen. The peace of Christ came over my whole being and I was saved, safe, and marveling!! believe me, I was in awe....Jesus is alive! He cares about me! He came out to fetch me in my debased, selfish, wasting sinful humanity. The fact of it still makes me marvel. He came in. He has never abandoned me.

Since that wonderful moment, I have had other experiences where I can see demons manifest in people right before my eyes, and I know this discernment was given to me by the Holy Spirit, just as the word says. And, also, the more I study His word, searching the answer to (you name it) the question, the more He reveals, the more my eyes are opened to deceptions, particularly. All scripture is God breathed! All of it good for instruction in righteousness! All of it living and operative in those who believe! Every word good for correction! And all of it leading to more discernment....discerning sin(personally speaking), spirits, Gods' wisdom...

Most recently, the devil pitched a little fit the day I burned all that Lee ministry material....the night of that day, a demon came at me snarling, trying to terrorize me in my bed. Does anybody else notice how amped up spiritual attack becomes when the Lord gives you His view through scrioture, or the prayer is so wonderful, the time spent with Jesus so precious and revealing of Himself, that you are just left in awe of Him, in reverence of Him? My experience is the devil really gets upset. Ok, thats' all....

Except, Evan, you just might try not telling God what His word is good for and what it's not....see if just trusting all of His Word for all things changes your mind. What if you looked at Christs' title...the Word of God....and receive scripture in humility. I think you will find man made limits looking like foolishness...God bless us in this conversation....