Outer Darkness?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - for anyone interested, I just posted a draft paper I wrote entitled, "Faithful in a Few Things" in another thread here:

Faithful in a Few Things

It was four Word doc pages, so sorry, it's a little long. It regards many of the things around this current discussion. Please let me know what you think, in light of our discussion here.

StG,

Well said. If you were going to take it to the next level I suggest three extensions of what you started. First, the assurance of our eternal security is based on God’s righteousness.... He has bound Himself to the sacrifice and shed blood of Christ and can never change His mind. He cannot make a claim on two for sin, His Son and us... were He to do that He would be unrighteous. There is a Psalm that says the foundation of His throne is based on righteousness, meaning His ruling in the universe is based on righteousness. Therefore, our eternal salvation is assured because He is righteous and could never do anything uprighteous like demand payment for the same sin twice. If He ever were unrighteous, even in one small matter, like not forgiving a little brother whose sins, each and every one of them, have been washed by the blood of Christ then the foundation of His throne would collapse and the universe would no longer exist as we know it.

Secondly, related to God’s righteousness is reward and punishment for works, deeds, profit, growth, and readiness after becoming a born again child of God. He is righteous in this also in that He has given us everything pertaining to meeting the standards of the reward of the Kingdom and to enter the joy of the Lord. The parable of the talents show that the entrance to the kingdom was based on a doubling of what the Lord had given each servant. To the one that was given 5 talents a total of 10 were returned to Him. Likewise to the one given 2 another 2 were added, so 4. These servants were counted worthy of entering the joy of their Lord. Had the servant given 1 talent doubled what he had been given he too would have been rewarded the same as the other two servants. By this we can see how righteous the Lord is in the matter of reward and punishment. The parable also hints that had the unfaithful servant merely returned interest he would have received something!

Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Alb, if you have read this far I encourage you to read StG’s article. I believe it is the Lords timely provision for you as are replies to you specifically about eternal salvation by other brothers in this thread.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

Well said. If you were going to take it to the next level I suggest three extensions of what you started. First, the assurance of our eternal security is based on God’s righteousness.... He has bound Himself to the sacrifice and shed blood of Christ and can never change His mind. He cannot make a claim on two for sin, His Son and us... were He to do that He would be unrighteous. There is a Psalm that says the foundation of His throne is based on righteousness, meaning His ruling in the universe is based on righteousness. Therefore, our eternal salvation is assured because He is righteous and could never do anything uprighteous like demand payment for the same sin twice. If He ever were unrighteous, even in one small matter, like not forgiving a little brother whose sins, each and every one of them, have been washed by the blood of Christ then the foundation of His throne would collapse and the universe would no longer exist as we know it.

Secondly, related to God’s righteousness is reward and punishment for works, deeds, profit, growth, and readiness after becoming a born again child of God. He is righteous in this also in that He has given us everything pertaining to meeting the standards of the reward of the Kingdom and to enter the joy of the Lord. The parable of the talents show that the entrance to the kingdom was based on a doubling of what the Lord had given each servant. To the one that was given 5 talents a total of 10 were returned to Him. Likewise to the one given 2 another 2 were added, so 4. These servants were counted worthy of entering the joy of their Lord. Had the servant given 1 talent doubled what he had been given he too would have been rewarded the same as the other two servants. By this we can see how righteous the Lord is in the matter of reward and punishment. The parable also hints that had the unfaithful servant merely returned interest he would have received something!

Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Alb, if you have read this far I encourage you to read StG’s article. I believe it is the Lords timely provision for you as are replies to you specifically about eternal salvation by other brothers in this thread.

Drake

Thanks for taking the time to read it and to give some thoughtful feedback! I have given the draft to a number of ones and will see what everyone thinks - I appreciate the suggestions you gave and will consider implementing them. As said, it really was a first draft - it just flowed out during two plane rides I made last week, and is basically the same as it was on the yellow legal pad I used. So I know it very likely needs improved organization, etc.

Did you find the references good enough, or should I add more? - there's a balance in this for the sake of reading simplicity (and length), but I want to be sure the reader knows the pertinent scripture.

[Sons to Glory!]

Hey - in reading this book last night regarding the Bema ("Your Eternal Reward: Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ" by Lutzer) the author conveyed something that hit me. He was talking about the three servants in Matthew 25 and said the unfaithful one was not willing to take a risk with what was entrusted to him by his master. The faithful servants had traded their entrusted talents in the marketplace and had doubled their master's money. The unfaithful one was afraid to take that risk, and hid the talent.

It hit me that this is what the Lord is asking us to do - take a risk with what He has given us! So much of the time I just stay with what is comfortable, not willing to go too far out. If you read the paper I just posted, "Faithful in a Few Things," then you know I have my four basic "few" things I know from the Lord to be faithful in (and I'm pretty comfortable with). But stepping out to do just a little more than that . . . well it seems a little "risky." I had never seen the faithful/unfaithful servants story in that light!

(And of course, this "risk" we know is really no risk at all, and is the very best investment of all!)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - in reading this book last night regarding the Bema ("Your Eternal Reward: Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ" by Lutzer) the author conveyed something that hit me. He was talking about the three servants in Matthew 25 and said the unfaithful one was not willing to take a risk with what was entrusted to him by his master. The faithful servants had traded their entrusted talents in the marketplace and had doubled their master's money. The unfaithful one was afraid to take that risk, and hid the talent.

It hit me that this is what the Lord is asking us to do - take a risk with what He has given us! So much of the time I just stay with what is comfortable, not willing to go too far out. If you read the paper I just posted, "Faithful in a Few Things," then you know I have my four basic "few" things I know from the Lord to be faithful in (and I'm pretty comfortable with). But stepping out to do just a little more than that . . . well it seems a little "risky." I had never seen the faithful/unfaithful servants story in that light!

(And of course, this "risk" we know is really no risk at all, and is the very best investment of all!)

Right. The one talented servants may be intimidated or introspective about only having 1 talent... watching the 5 talented one give back 10, or the 2 talented one give back 4... he might be thinking his 1 talent could never return 10 or 4 ... he thinks probably not even 2.... so he buries it. Yet the Lord only asks him to invest what he has received.

I think of it this way.... Billy Graham was a 5 talented member of the Body.... he returned 10 (arguably more than that but to stay within the lines of the parable) ... we could get introspective about that and say "y'know, Brother Billy really understands how to lead people to the Lord... but I never could do what he does so I won't even try to preach the gospel... he more than makes up for my lack". That would be to bury our one talent in the matter of gospel preaching and thereby not fulfilling the great commission. Or in practical service in the church.. or any number of related talents we could be guilty of burying our talent.

There is something more there related to the comment " I knew you were a harsh man".... the Lord did not dismiss the point but rather turned it back on the unfaithful servant. "Knowing I was harsh...". Yet the attitude on the part of the servant seems to be making excuses in blaming the Lord for his burying the talent. So, there is the risk of failure... but maybe he felt some despising toward the Lord.. like "you gave them 5 and 2 talents... but me you gave only 1". I'm still chewing on that.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Right. The one talented servants may be intimidated or introspective about only having 1 talent... watching the 5 talented one give back 10, or the 2 talented one give back 4... he might be thinking his 1 talent could never return 10 or 4 ... he thinks probably not even 2.... so he buries it. Yet the Lord only asks him to invest what he has received.

I think of it this way.... Billy Graham was a 5 talented member of the Body.... he returned 10 (arguably more than that but to stay within the lines of the parable) ... we could get introspective about that and say "y'know, Brother Billy really understands how to lead people to the Lord... but I never could do what he does so I won't even try to preach the gospel... he more than makes up for my lack". That would be to bury our one talent in the matter of gospel preaching and thereby not fulfilling the great commission. Or in practical service in the church.. or any number of related talents.

Drake

Right! And I think there are a limited number of 5 talent ones. But there's a lot of us one talent ones (present company excepted of course). One talents are the infantry - the boots on the ground. If we don't do it, then who will!?

I am more and more aware that God has placed me with my family, my church-folk, my neighbors, my co-workers, my body, my house, money, vehicles - you name it! This is what He has given me and where He has me, and in these is where I need to be faithful.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Right! And I think there are a limited number of 5 talent ones. But there's a lot of us one talent ones (present company excepted of course). One talents are the infantry - the boots on the ground. If we don't do it, then who will!?

I am more and more aware that God has placed me with my family, my church-folk, my neighbors, my co-workers, my body, my house, money, vehicles - you name it! This is what He has given me and where He has me, and in these is where I need to be faithful.

yessir.

Be faithful to His calling where, when , and what.....and then be faithful if and when He calls you to a new where, at a new when, with a new what.

We never know about the future in our lives... .... and what is in the past is a frozen record.... but we have the present to do something about .... by following His instant leading and returning an investment on that which He gave us.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Be faithful to His calling where, when , and what.....and then be faithful if and when He calls you to a new where, at a new when, with a new what.
Drake

Well amen brother Drake.

[A little brother]

Thank you all, Sons to Glory, Ohio, Awareness, Evangelical, Aron, and Drake. We may have different viewpoints but I see the oneness in the body of Christ when all of you reach out to give advice to this little brother.

Since I rejoined the LC years ago, I started to re-examine every teaching I received from it. I began to realize that we are quick to fit ourselves into God's great promises/blessings, and to fit others into God's major warnings/accusations. To be fair, this is not just LC specific but applicable to Christians as a whole. May be it is because of how we received the gospel in the first place - God's perfect message preached through imperfect man to even more imperfect sinners.

We all treasure the subjective personal relationship with God. But I also tried to read the Bible more objectively to understand what God really says by firstly taking away the "I" from the context. So far I found this quite fruitful. It did no harm to my sujective experiences with God and actually helped me understand God and myself better.

Somehow, Matt 23:23 has become one of my favorite reminders.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law -- justice and mercy and faithfulness. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

We might think it is only about the others who have neglected the weightier matters. But we could be the other way round. We focus so much on the "higher truth" that we might have neglected the "lighter" matters. We point everything to Jesus and say it is not about us, but we forgot He appointed us to work on a few things. It actually doesn't matter that much which is the weightier and which is the lighter because Jesus told us not to neglect either.

Also, while Jesus is all in all, let's not neglect there is a "you" in

"And you shall love the Lord your God from your whole heart and from your whole soul and from your whole mind and from your whole strength.",

no matter how small and insignificant this "you" is in front of our great God.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for taking the time to read it and to give some thoughtful feedback! I have given the draft to a number of ones and will see what everyone thinks - I appreciate the suggestions you gave and will consider implementing them. As said, it really was a first draft - it just flowed out during two plane rides I made last week, and is basically the same as it was on the yellow legal pad I used. So I know it very likely needs improved organization, etc.

Did you find the references good enough, or should I add more? - there's a balance in this for the sake of reading simplicity (and length), but I want to be sure the reader knows the pertinent scripture.

Hi StG,

I thought the references were good.... I think Psalm 89:14 would help to explain that the righteousness of God is the surety of our salvation and that He is bound by His covenant. God loves us, but He may not like us from time to time. Nevertheless, He must and will honor His own word.

Grace to you
Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

...Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Finally got around to looking at this paper again, and I incorporated the matter of God's righteousness as a basis for His action (thanks!). However, what do you mean by my "three principles" to add as a summary?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Finally got around to looking at this paper again, and I incorporated the matter of God's righteousness as a basis for His action (thanks!). However, what do you mean by my "three principles" to add as a summary?

From post #192..

"So I want to bring these three things up again, as we didn't get many responding aye or nay. Can we have consensus on these three basic principles?


1. The Father loves us and we are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God who are true believers are thereby saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in the OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is firm yet He is fair in all His ways."

these were very relevant to topic... so I thought including them up front would be good and then summarizing with them in the end. something like this

Front: " In this paper three basic and scriptural principles will be covered....... "

Middle: the article itself

End: " I have endeavored to show from the scriptures three principles of the Christian faith concerning the Father's love, regeneration, righteousness, and His judgments.... "

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

"So I want to bring these three things up again, as we didn't get many responding aye or nay. Can we have consensus on these three basic principles?

[COLOR=Purple]
1. The Father loves us and we are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God who are true believers are thereby saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in the OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is firm yet He is fair in all His ways."

[COLOR=black]

I think this is missing a very important point that we learn in Matt 18.

Very often Christians think it is a binary choice -- overcomer or outer darkness. Matt 18 begins with "who is the greatest" and ends with the one being sent to debtors prison. But why? Because he violated the principle "forgive us as we have forgiven those that sin against us".

On this thread there have been mentioning of those who have no hope of being an overcomer to the point it has become a sad joke. But, can't you at least forgive those who have sinned against you? That is all it takes to avoid outer darkness.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think this is missing a very important point that we learn in Matt 18.

Very often Christians think it is a binary choice -- overcomer or outer darkness. Matt 18 begins with "who is the greatest" and ends with the one being sent to debtors prison. But why? Because he violated the principle "forgive us as we have forgiven those that sin against us".

On this thread there have been mentioning of those who have no hope of being an overcomer to the point it has become a sad joke. But, can't you at least forgive those who have sinned against you? That is all it takes to avoid outer darkness.

And we also need to consider the words spoken to the faithful servants in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in a FEW things; I will set you over many. Enter into the joy of your master."

As I mentioned earlier, this was quite the eye-opener for many of us when a brother recently shared his experience of the Lord touching him about this matter. Many of us get the idea with the Bema and overcoming that the bar is set really high and we must be a SuperSaint to somehow get over it. (I was so inspired that a 4 page paper on the subject just flowed out of me and I posted it on this forum a couple weeks ago. So far I think the only one who acknowledged it was Drake . . See here for "Faithful in a Few Things" paper )

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And we also need to consider the words spoken to the faithful servants in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in a FEW things; I will set you over many. Enter into the joy of your master."

As I mentioned earlier, this was quite the eye-opener for many of us when a brother recently shared his experience of the Lord touching him about this matter. Many of us get the idea with the Bema and overcoming that the bar is set really high and we must be a SuperSaint to somehow get over it. (I was so inspired that a 4 page paper on the subject just flowed out of me and I posted it on this forum a couple weeks ago. So far I think the only one who acknowledged it was Drake . . See here for "Faithful in a Few Things" paper )

What do you mean "acknowledge"?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What do you mean "acknowledge"?

Just that I don't think anyone else mentioned they had looked at it. They may have read it, but didn't mention it to my recollection (but then again I'm in the 4th quarter, so perhaps not as fresh as I used to be . . . LOL)