Outer Darkness?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

"So I want to bring these three things up again, as we didn't get many responding aye or nay. Can we have consensus on these three basic principles?

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1. The Father loves us and we are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God who are true believers are thereby saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in the OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is firm yet He is fair in all His ways."

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I think this is missing a very important point that we learn in Matt 18.

Very often Christians think it is a binary choice -- overcomer or outer darkness. Matt 18 begins with "who is the greatest" and ends with the one being sent to debtors prison. But why? Because he violated the principle "forgive us as we have forgiven those that sin against us".

On this thread there have been mentioning of those who have no hope of being an overcomer to the point it has become a sad joke. But, can't you at least forgive those who have sinned against you? That is all it takes to avoid outer darkness.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think this is missing a very important point that we learn in Matt 18.

Very often Christians think it is a binary choice -- overcomer or outer darkness. Matt 18 begins with "who is the greatest" and ends with the one being sent to debtors prison. But why? Because he violated the principle "forgive us as we have forgiven those that sin against us".

On this thread there have been mentioning of those who have no hope of being an overcomer to the point it has become a sad joke. But, can't you at least forgive those who have sinned against you? That is all it takes to avoid outer darkness.

And we also need to consider the words spoken to the faithful servants in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in a FEW things; I will set you over many. Enter into the joy of your master."

As I mentioned earlier, this was quite the eye-opener for many of us when a brother recently shared his experience of the Lord touching him about this matter. Many of us get the idea with the Bema and overcoming that the bar is set really high and we must be a SuperSaint to somehow get over it. (I was so inspired that a 4 page paper on the subject just flowed out of me and I posted it on this forum a couple weeks ago. So far I think the only one who acknowledged it was Drake . . See here for "Faithful in a Few Things" paper )

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And we also need to consider the words spoken to the faithful servants in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in a FEW things; I will set you over many. Enter into the joy of your master."

As I mentioned earlier, this was quite the eye-opener for many of us when a brother recently shared his experience of the Lord touching him about this matter. Many of us get the idea with the Bema and overcoming that the bar is set really high and we must be a SuperSaint to somehow get over it. (I was so inspired that a 4 page paper on the subject just flowed out of me and I posted it on this forum a couple weeks ago. So far I think the only one who acknowledged it was Drake . . See here for "Faithful in a Few Things" paper )

What do you mean "acknowledge"?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What do you mean "acknowledge"?

Just that I don't think anyone else mentioned they had looked at it. They may have read it, but didn't mention it to my recollection (but then again I'm in the 4th quarter, so perhaps not as fresh as I used to be . . . LOL)

[Sons to Glory!]

So I've been reading two recent books on the Bema, "The Judgment Seat of Christ: A Biblical and Theological Study" by Hoyt and "Your Eternal Reward: Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ" by Lutzer. I finished the Lutzer book and passed it along to another bro who wanted to read it. This book was an easy read and I agreed with 96.7% of what it said. The brother I gave it to is quite well read, and said he is enjoying it.

The book by Hoyt is a much more academic and systematic approach, and therefore I have to engage my brain a little more (oh no! ). I'm maybe 1/3 through it and so far both books agree on the main points regarding the Bema. However, last night I read where Hoyt stated that the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 was not a believer. Surprisingly, he did not go into much detail other than to quote one other person on the subject. Up until that point he pretty exhaustively covered each and every point he's made, very systematically.

The reason I can't agree is that Jesus starts this parable by saying this, "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods."

BTW - This goes along with what Jesus told regarding the 12 virgins in the preceding parable - they were all virgins, they all had lamps burning (although half were going out), they all arose to meet the bridegroom.

Can anyone provide a solid reason from scripture that any of these ones presented in Matthew 25:1-30 were not born again?

[Sons to Glory!]

Looks like maybe I'm just having a conversation here with myself! Am I the only one laboring on Labor Day weekend!? (yes, I have my honey-do list . . .)

While reading "The Judgment Seat of Christ" (Samuel Hoyt) book, I read where he doesn't see the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 being a true born-again one. He gives as his only reference to support this contention this webpage called "Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth - will this be the fate of true Christians?" by George Zeller. See Weeping & Gnashing article here

In this reference, the 7 instances of weeping & gnashing of teeth in the NT are explored. It is stated that it is commonly held that three of these instances pertain to the wicked and four pertain to Christians. A concluding quote from the above link postulates otherwise:

Wherever you find the expression "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the New Testament, know of a certainty that it is a description of the judgment and doom of lost, unsaved men who will not inherit and not even enter the kingdom. It is never used to describe the fate of saved people.

I sent brother Hoyt an email regarding this matter, and here it is:

Hi Brother,

I'm enjoying your book, "The Judgment Seat of Christ." I have a question regarding an apparent disparity regarding the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25.

On page 78 (paperback) it states that this unfaithful servant is "an unsaved man facing eternal damnation." I read the footnote referencing the supporting online article by George Zeller, which I also read.

The issue I have with this is that a simple observation of what Jesus told us at the beginning of the parable, doesn't seem to concur that the unfaithful servant is not one of His own: “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them." (Matt 25:14) They were his servants. He entrusted wealth to them. If the two faithful ones belonged to the master, we have to say the unfaithful one did too.

Thanks for writing this book in such a systematic, thoughtful and Christ-centered way!

The Lord be with your spirit!

The basic conclusion Hoyt comes to in his book (as I can ascertain thus far) is that Christians at the Bema will be rewarded for their works or will suffer the loss of those rewards -- and while there may be distress and anguish felt by the child of God on account of their works falling short and therefore not being well-pleasing to the Lord, there will be nothing negative long-term (except the ongoing loss of the reward), and no specific punishment (per se) for their shortcomings. I'm a little over halfway through the book, so perhaps Hoyt develops some additional thoughts regarding his overall thesis . . .

[ABrotherinFaith]

This is one of the most interesting topics ( it's been discussed here before) to me, not just as a Christian but as a former LCer. Their air of superiority is at least in part, rooted in there teaching of who is (LCers) and who isn't (the rest) an overcomer. I don't remember hearing that ALL those in the LC woikd be overcomers, but I do remember hearing that overcomers came from among the Recovery, and not in a general sense... More exclusively. I'm looking forward to reading the links you've provided.