Outer Darkness?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This matter of "Outer Darkness" is not a simple teaching or "doctrine" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. It is part and parcel of a larger system of error. It is impossible to take this teaching and discuss it apart from the entire gambit of the teachings, practices and history. I know that current LC members find it convenient to attempt to steer the discussion in a direction which diverts attention away from the realities that were, and now are, faced by followers of Witness Lee. So, steer away fellows...but don't expect to have much success around here.
-

No need to steer anything.... just offer an alternative explanation for the outer darkness. Aron, can’t.

Somebody step up.

Maybe some think it doesn’t apply to believers and that it is a picture of hell... or maybe some believe it’s just a story and we shouldn’t make too much of it, maybe some are convinced that when the believer stands before the Lord He will judge them but then intervene and rescue them because of His shed blood and grace. Maybe some just mentally clip that part out of their Bible. I really don’t know how members in this forum interpret this scripture,, except StG and his three excellent points, Evangelical by his detailed explanations, and perhaps Trapped who seems to accept the outer darkness teaching but disagrees with how it was applied.

Other than that what we have so far is just nay saying... no alternatives. I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

Drake

Outer darkness is undeniably unattractive to any and all human life, or otherwise. It sounds bad but not as bad as hell.

However, I doubt loyalty to Lee's movement is the standard by which it's determined who goes there.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Outer darkness is undeniably unattractive to any and all human life, or otherwise. It sounds bad but not as bad as hell.

However, I doubt loyalty to Lee's movement is the standard by which it's determined who goes there.

True, its prudent to want to avoid it. ....and the standard is found in the sum of the parables, epistles, the book of Revelation, and the entirety of the Word of God.

Though not scripture, I believe StG's three point declaration is worthy of affirmation.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

I've repeatedly given you Hebrews 3 and 1 Cor 15 referencing the Exodus, and written to Christian believers. Why no response? I thought you were ready to discuss? Neither infers a thousand-year torment.

Moses fell in the wilderness, due to disobedience. Is he going to be in torment for 1,000 years after the rapture? If so, why was he seen with Jesus Christ on the mountain of transfiguration, in the gospels.

Perhaps Lee covered this all in detail; if so, please bring it up and let's see it. And while you're at it, let's consider why going beyond scripture is profitable for the believers' walk. I must have missed that in our discussion thus far.

For example, if 2,000,000 Israelites crossed the Red Sea but only two of them (Caleb and Joshua) made it across the Jordan River, does that mean that only 1 Christian in every million "makes it" into the kingdom reward? The other 999,999 get a thousand years of anguish? Or is that reading too much into the text; you know, going beyond what's actually been written?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I've repeatedly given you Hebrews 3 and 1 Cor 15 referencing the Exodus, and written to Christian believers. Why no response? I thought you were ready to discuss? Neither infers a thousand-year torment.

Right... Hebrews says that they did not enter into His "rest" and I Cor 15 says they served as examples for us being strewn along in the wilderness.

So, please tell us your version of what entering into His rest mean? And then what does not entering into His rest mean?

"Stark and sober" indeed.... so we should dive into it.

thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Right... Hebrews says that they did not enter into His "rest" and I Cor 15 says they served as examples for us being strewn along in the wilderness.

So, please tell us your version of what entering into His rest mean? And then what does not entering into His rest mean?

"Stark and sober" indeed.... so we should dive into it.

thanks
Drake

I don't know - Moses? Please, go ahead. We are waiting. I am, anyway.

My version is this: God loves us, so much that He sent His Son. We might believe into him, Jesus the Messiah, and have eternal life.

Now, how come Moses didn't enter into the rest, but is with Christ on the Mountain? Should I ignore this in my theology-building? You seem to want to. Why - because your teacher did?

There's a danger in gross oversimplification, and LSM is Exhibit A. You want me to be Exhibit B? Okay, how about "Love God and love your neighbour"?

You want responsibility, and consequence? How about, "What you do to others will be done to you"? That's not good enough for you? Why not?

Why follow someone who goes beyond what is written? How does this "closely follow the apostles teaching"? How come Witness Lee got to tease 'truths' out of thin air while the rest were told, "Don't have an opinion"?

It's clear in the NT, both in gospel and epistle, that there's consequence for disobedience. Nobody here on this forum has suggested otherwise.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Now, how come Moses didn't enter into the rest, but is with Christ on the Mountain? Should I ignore this in my theology-building? You seem to want to. Why - because your teacher did?

Ignore it?

Oh , no. Lean into it.

This is as good a starting point as any really per my last post. What do learned men throughout the ages say about it?

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ignore it?

Oh , no. Lean into it.

This is as good a starting point as any really per my last post. What do learned men throughout the ages say about it?

Thanks
Drake

I don't know. Did Lee ignore this question, or did he mention it? Perhaps learned men are smart enough to avoid unfounded speculation, and if they project unproven hypothesis they label it as such, and not "recovered truth".

My own take is this - where the Bible is silent we should exercise caution. Usually reticence is the watchword. Otherwise you end up looking kinda dumb.

I don't have an answer on Moses, btw. Do you? No footnotes to offer?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I don't know. Did Lee ignore this question, or did he mention it? Perhaps learned men are smart enough to avoid unfounded speculation, and if they project unproven hypothesis they label it as such, and not "recovered truth".

My own take is this - where the Bible is silent we should exercise caution. Usually reticence is the watchword. Otherwise you end up looking kinda dumb.

I don't have an answer on Moses, btw. Do you? No footnotes to offer?

That's ok, I'm sure we all are missing stuff....... what do the learned and educated men have to say about it?

Let's start there.

thanks
Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Here's something I quoted earlier that I now have a comment on. (I'm reading some of Hoyt's book on the subject of the Bema and also a book by Lutzer on the same. Both books published recently)

THREE VIEWS OF THE BEMA from Samuel L. Hoyt's "The Judgment Seat of Christ: A Biblical and Theological Study"

1. Some Bible teachers view the judgment seat as a place of intense sorrow, a place of terror, and a place where Christ display all the believer’s sins (or at least those unconfessed) before the entire resurrected and raptured church. Some go even further by stating that Christians must experience some sort of suffering for their sins at the time of this examination.

2. At the other end of the spectrum another group, which holds to the same eschatological chronology, views this event as an awards ceremony. Awards are handed out to every Christian. The result of this judgment will be that each Christian will be grateful for the reward which he receives, and he will have little or no shame.

3. Other Bible teachers espouse a mediating position. They maintain the seriousness of the examination and yet emphasize the commendation aspect of the judgment seat. They emphasize the importance and necessity of faithful living today but reject any thought of forensic punishment at the Bema. Emphasis is placed on the fact that each Christian must give an account of his life before the omniscient and holy Christ. All that was done through the energy of the flesh will be regarded as worthless for reward, while all that was done in the power of the Holy Spirit will be graciously rewarded. Those who hold this view believe that the Christian will stand glorified before Christ without his old sin nature. He will, likewise, be without guilt because he has been declared righteous. There will be no need for forensic punishment, for Christ has forever borne all of God’s wrath toward the believer’s sins.

I would say that WL definitely tended to go with #1, with the last sentence being quite applicable in his teachings. Emphasis on fear. (WL might not have taught that sins were on display at the Bema though.)

What I see is more in line with #3, that is, rewards (gold, silver, stone) but also the realization of a loss of rewards (wood, hay, stubble) There will be much joy to go around, but also sorrow that individual believers weren't faithful in more things. I've also wondered if we will see clearly all the opportunities lost - lost opportunities to share Christ, therefore the kingdom work suffered . . . and also possibly the angst that others didn't come to Christ through us.

One author likens the scene to a commencement ceremony. There is great corporate joy for what has been accomplished, but also sorrow that more wasn't done. This author says the sorrow will be short-lived and no need for "forensic" (criminal investigation) judgement. However, tell that to the unfaithful servant who was cast into outer darkness! (but who knows how long that is for?! Perhaps just for the wedding feast? and how long is that . . . ?)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Here's something I quoted earlier that I now have a comment on. (I'm reading some of Hoyt's book on the subject of the Bema and also a book by Lutzer on the same. Both books published recently)

I would say that WL definitely tended to go with #1, with the last sentence being quite applicable in his teachings. Emphasis on fear. (WL might not have taught that sins were on display at the Bema though.)

What I see is more in line with #3, that is, rewards (gold, silver, stone) but also the realization of a loss of rewards (wood, hay, stubble) There will be much joy to go around, but also sorrow that individual believers weren't faithful in more things. I've also wondered if we will see clearly all the opportunities lost - lost opportunities to share Christ, therefore the kingdom work suffered . . . and also possibly the angst that others didn't come to Christ through us.. . ?)

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations (Revelation 2:26-27) a clear reference to the time the Lord Jesus rules on the earth for 1000 years.

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If God were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be here chatting about it.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations. (Revelation 2:26-27)

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If He were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be there chatting about it.

Drake

Okay, sounds right. But I do think these days the reality of the Bema is coming out more and more in Christian writings (although I don't hear it spoken much). As said, the two books I mentioned were both published in the last few years. Others are also starting to share more about Bema accountability including Chuck Missler. It's about time and we all need it!

In our business, we get paid to help others be accountable to their own goals. While reaching the goal itself is certainly an incentive, of course not attaining it is a loss. Benefits to be enjoyed; losses to be avoided. Kind of like double motivation, eh?

I was talking to a brother about this yesterday and it occurred to me that in Matthew 25 we are shown two positive instances of faithful servants, and just one instance of what happened with the unfaithful servant. I don't think that was written happenstance (of course not!) - God wants us to be doubly encouraged as He is the God of all encouragement! But He also want's us to be fully aware of the consequences of not gaining the prize.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear..

Sorry, this is not true at all. I'll give one instance to confirm.

Apostle Paul writes to the Corinthians that they are members one of another, "many members but one body." He reproves them for how they have treated one another. His entire epistle expounds on this. Christians today also treasure the Lord's prayer, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This theology is ingrained by ministers into the entire body of Christ. It is quite evident every where I visit.

Witness Lee altered this message deceptively as his power grew. Instead he taught "many churches but one body" referring to his ministry. Rather than loving, forgiving, and serving the brothers and sisters besides us, Lee twisted the emphasis to how was your relationship with the ministry. Thus brothers fought with brothers during the New Way over who was more "one with the ministry." Those workers who were not absolutely loyal to Lee, even to the point of ship-wrecking their own consciences, were discarded, quarantined, and slandered by Lee and his cadre of minions.

So don't tell me about forgiveness, loving the brothers, and treating them according to God. That's why I left your little club.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations (Revelation 2:26-27) a clear reference to the time the Lord Jesus rules on the earth for 1000 years.

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If God were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be here chatting about it.

Drake

I'm bringing this forward because I believe this should be front and center in every Christian's understanding and to guide and remind each of us of this most solemn event that awaits our future.

I need this reminder and so do we all.

I mentioned elsewhere that our (the believers) words and deeds will be judged by the Lord in the air at His return. At that time, believers will either receive a reward (to enter into the 1000 year reign with the Lord) or will suffer a dispensational punishment in outer darkness (outside of His cloud of glory). As StG has correctly captured in his research paper on the subject (found in this thread) this is not a judgment concerning eternal life, that matter has already been settled and if you find yourself at the Judgment Seat of Christ in the air you have eternal life else you would not be there! That judgment is for the believers alone. The nations, still alive at the end of the great tribulation, are judged on the earth after the judgment in the air of the believers (born again regenerated Christians)

So the good news is if you are at the Judgment Seat of Christ in the air you have eternal life and that will not be taken away ever. The really good news is that if your works, your deeds, your words, your behavior, are found worthy then Christ will make you a co-king in His millennial reign. The bad news is that if they are not found worthy then that believer/servant will suffer outer darkness for some or all of the 1000 years millennial reign. We should not deceive ourselves into thinking all will be well at His judgment in the air just because we have eternal life when we believed in the Lord. No. Judgment begins at the house of God and the examples of the unworthy servants in Matthew and the non-overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 serve as fair warning to us about the type of works, deeds, and words that will be judged.

That brings us, or should bring us, to a very clear understanding that even the words spoken in this forum will be included at that judgment. Sometimes I fear brothers, that as we sit behind our computers typing away we do not sense the reality of that day in our hearts. For if we did, would we say the things that are often said in this forum against other believers? I think not. Do not misinterpret my meaning to suggest that you cannot challenge or disagree with any man's teaching. No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that there is a line that is crossed all too frequently and ends up in mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, willful misunderstanding and an argumentative spirit, against His servants and His children. This, I believe, will not only be judged at His coming, but can affect our spiritual progress in this life.

Jessie Penn Lewis spoke of this latter point of hindrance to spiritual progress when she wrote: " When you are in the spiritual plane and know the Holy Spirit in your spirit, you recognize there are grave consequences attached to all you do.You cannot go back from the spirit life without stepping into a pathway of failure. The moment you drop from the plane that you have reached you begin to lose spirit strength, and if you do not recover your place quickly you will ultimately sink into a deeper failure. The loss not only affects yourself but everyone with whom you have to deal. You may wrongly interpret or reject the words of a servant of the God and that would cause you to go back without knowing it. This hindrance to your spirit life will maintained while that wrong thought or attitude is held." Walking in the Will of God. JPL

So, look, to the brothers and sisters in this forum I caution and advise each of you to consider this matter carefully knowing that there are grave consequences in this life in our christian walk and spiritual progress.... and at His judgment seat when He returns. If you read this, you, and I, are without excuse. This is not a threat, not a scare tactic, but a call to each of you to examine your heart and your words and the content of your posts in truthfulness and attitude before the Lord. If He judges your works, deeds, and words as worthy, you will receive a reward and if not you will spend time in outer darkness. The Lord's reward or punishment applies just as much to me as it does to you.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

No need to steer anything.... just offer an alternative explanation for the outer darkness. Aron, can’t.

Well as far as I know aron hasn't claimed to be the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth. Nor does he have a bunch of groupies running around calling him "The Acting God" or "The One Minister with the One Ministry for The Age". And I don't believe he has started his own religion in which his followers must follow his person and work to a T or be sentenced to 1,000 years of weeping and gnashing of teeth in Outer Darkness (my, my, how ever are they going to catch up reading that huge backlog of Life Studies, Lee Outlines and HWMRs in total darkness?)

So in the meantime I imagine aron might do what most considerate, reasonable Christians do when it comes to researching and learning about the proper understandings and interpretations of such deep theological matters - he will turn to the plethora of educated and learned men that the Lord has provided to the Body of Christ for the proper interpretations. They may vary in their interpretations, but most will be backing them up with knowledge of different types and applications of theology, with knowledge of the original languages, and the historical understandings and interpretations of other biblical scholars throughout the ages. What he won't be doing is turning to the uneducated guesses and willy-nilly, make-it-up-as-he-went-along "theology" of Witness Lee.

So if aron feels like it, or wants to take the time, maybe he or someone else here will indulge your challenge. Of course it won't matter in the end. You don't care what anyone has to say about anything unless their first name is Watchman or Witness. Taking the time to give you the orthodox teachings regarding anything is an exercise in futility. You have a one track train, and it only makes one stop - Lee Central Station.
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

maybe he or someone else here will indulge your challenge.
-

I challenge brother Drake to present his take on outer darkness. If he has already, may he please repeat it.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So in the meantime I imagine aron might do what most considerate, reasonable Christians do when it comes to researching and learning about the proper understandings and interpretations of such deep theological matters - he will turn to the plethora of educated and learned men that the Lord has provided to the Body of Christ for the proper interpretations. They may vary in their interpretations, but most will be backing them up with knowledge of different types and applications of theology, with knowledge of the original languages, and the historical understandings and interpretations of other biblical scholars throughout the ages. What he won't be doing is turning to the uneducated guesses and willy-nilly, make-it-up-as-he-went-along "theology" of Witness Lee. -

That is terrific!

Aron, this is great. Now you can demonstrate once and for all, just how that "uneducated" China-man stacks up against "educated and learned men". Can't wait to see the knowledge of different types and applications of theology, original languages, and historical understandings and interpretations throughout the ages. All good stuff.

So, I'm here, pen in hand and brand spankin new spiral notebook. You won't mind if I ask questions and raise points of clarification? ok, good.. didn't think a reasonable and considerate christian such as yourself would mind.

So, exactly what did those scholars throughout the ages say about the outer darkness?

The podium is yours.

Thanks much,
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, exactly what did those scholars throughout the ages say about the outer darkness?

The podium is yours.

Interesting how suddenly you don't want to discuss Lee's theology.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Interesting how suddenly you don't want to discuss Lee's theology.

It's amazing how arrogant our beloved Drake becomes when the teachings of his favorite MOTA get challenged.

Drake, does it not trouble you upon learning of all the unrighteousness at LSM? Why would all the Apostles, knowing that they were teaching and writing of the New Covenant centered on the life, person, work, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, carefully guard their hearts and their living from unrighteousness? They were "apostles" after all, why should they even care if they fleeced the saints, covered up sins, smeared other ministers, hired family who molested the sisters, etc?

Paul even boasted of a conscience void of all offense, while Witness Lee just boasted in offenses.