Outer Darkness?

[Sons to Glory!]

Here's something I quoted earlier that I now have a comment on. (I'm reading some of Hoyt's book on the subject of the Bema and also a book by Lutzer on the same. Both books published recently)

THREE VIEWS OF THE BEMA from Samuel L. Hoyt's "The Judgment Seat of Christ: A Biblical and Theological Study"

1. Some Bible teachers view the judgment seat as a place of intense sorrow, a place of terror, and a place where Christ display all the believer’s sins (or at least those unconfessed) before the entire resurrected and raptured church. Some go even further by stating that Christians must experience some sort of suffering for their sins at the time of this examination.

2. At the other end of the spectrum another group, which holds to the same eschatological chronology, views this event as an awards ceremony. Awards are handed out to every Christian. The result of this judgment will be that each Christian will be grateful for the reward which he receives, and he will have little or no shame.

3. Other Bible teachers espouse a mediating position. They maintain the seriousness of the examination and yet emphasize the commendation aspect of the judgment seat. They emphasize the importance and necessity of faithful living today but reject any thought of forensic punishment at the Bema. Emphasis is placed on the fact that each Christian must give an account of his life before the omniscient and holy Christ. All that was done through the energy of the flesh will be regarded as worthless for reward, while all that was done in the power of the Holy Spirit will be graciously rewarded. Those who hold this view believe that the Christian will stand glorified before Christ without his old sin nature. He will, likewise, be without guilt because he has been declared righteous. There will be no need for forensic punishment, for Christ has forever borne all of God’s wrath toward the believer’s sins.

I would say that WL definitely tended to go with #1, with the last sentence being quite applicable in his teachings. Emphasis on fear. (WL might not have taught that sins were on display at the Bema though.)

What I see is more in line with #3, that is, rewards (gold, silver, stone) but also the realization of a loss of rewards (wood, hay, stubble) There will be much joy to go around, but also sorrow that individual believers weren't faithful in more things. I've also wondered if we will see clearly all the opportunities lost - lost opportunities to share Christ, therefore the kingdom work suffered . . . and also possibly the angst that others didn't come to Christ through us.

One author likens the scene to a commencement ceremony. There is great corporate joy for what has been accomplished, but also sorrow that more wasn't done. This author says the sorrow will be short-lived and no need for "forensic" (criminal investigation) judgement. However, tell that to the unfaithful servant who was cast into outer darkness! (but who knows how long that is for?! Perhaps just for the wedding feast? and how long is that . . . ?)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Here's something I quoted earlier that I now have a comment on. (I'm reading some of Hoyt's book on the subject of the Bema and also a book by Lutzer on the same. Both books published recently)

I would say that WL definitely tended to go with #1, with the last sentence being quite applicable in his teachings. Emphasis on fear. (WL might not have taught that sins were on display at the Bema though.)

What I see is more in line with #3, that is, rewards (gold, silver, stone) but also the realization of a loss of rewards (wood, hay, stubble) There will be much joy to go around, but also sorrow that individual believers weren't faithful in more things. I've also wondered if we will see clearly all the opportunities lost - lost opportunities to share Christ, therefore the kingdom work suffered . . . and also possibly the angst that others didn't come to Christ through us.. . ?)

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations (Revelation 2:26-27) a clear reference to the time the Lord Jesus rules on the earth for 1000 years.

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If God were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be here chatting about it.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations. (Revelation 2:26-27)

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If He were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be there chatting about it.

Drake

Okay, sounds right. But I do think these days the reality of the Bema is coming out more and more in Christian writings (although I don't hear it spoken much). As said, the two books I mentioned were both published in the last few years. Others are also starting to share more about Bema accountability including Chuck Missler. It's about time and we all need it!

In our business, we get paid to help others be accountable to their own goals. While reaching the goal itself is certainly an incentive, of course not attaining it is a loss. Benefits to be enjoyed; losses to be avoided. Kind of like double motivation, eh?

I was talking to a brother about this yesterday and it occurred to me that in Matthew 25 we are shown two positive instances of faithful servants, and just one instance of what happened with the unfaithful servant. I don't think that was written happenstance (of course not!) - God wants us to be doubly encouraged as He is the God of all encouragement! But He also want's us to be fully aware of the consequences of not gaining the prize.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, sounds right. But I do think these days the reality of the Bema is coming out more and more in Christian writings (although I don't hear it spoken much). As said, the two books I mentioned were both published in the last few years. Others are also starting to share more about Bema accountability including Chuck Missler. It's about time and we all need it!

In our business, we get paid to help others be accountable to their own goals. While reaching the goal itself is certainly an incentive, of course not attaining it is a loss. Benefits to be enjoyed; losses to be avoided. Kind of like double motivation, eh?

I was talking to a brother about this yesterday and it occurred to me that in Matthew 25 we are shown two positive instances of faithful servants, and just one instance of what happened with the unfaithful servant. I don't think that was written happenstance (of course not!) - God wants us to be doubly encouraged as He is the God of all encouragement! But He also want's us to be fully aware of the consequences of not gaining the prize.

Spot on.

The parable of the virgins in Matthew 25 is another good illustration of this.... all were virgins... some made it into the wedding feast... and some didn't.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear..

Sorry, this is not true at all. I'll give one instance to confirm.

Apostle Paul writes to the Corinthians that they are members one of another, "many members but one body." He reproves them for how they have treated one another. His entire epistle expounds on this. Christians today also treasure the Lord's prayer, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This theology is ingrained by ministers into the entire body of Christ. It is quite evident every where I visit.

Witness Lee altered this message deceptively as his power grew. Instead he taught "many churches but one body" referring to his ministry. Rather than loving, forgiving, and serving the brothers and sisters besides us, Lee twisted the emphasis to how was your relationship with the ministry. Thus brothers fought with brothers during the New Way over who was more "one with the ministry." Those workers who were not absolutely loyal to Lee, even to the point of ship-wrecking their own consciences, were discarded, quarantined, and slandered by Lee and his cadre of minions.

So don't tell me about forgiveness, loving the brothers, and treating them according to God. That's why I left your little club.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations (Revelation 2:26-27) a clear reference to the time the Lord Jesus rules on the earth for 1000 years.

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If God were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be here chatting about it.

Drake

I'm bringing this forward because I believe this should be front and center in every Christian's understanding and to guide and remind each of us of this most solemn event that awaits our future.

I need this reminder and so do we all.

I mentioned elsewhere that our (the believers) words and deeds will be judged by the Lord in the air at His return. At that time, believers will either receive a reward (to enter into the 1000 year reign with the Lord) or will suffer a dispensational punishment in outer darkness (outside of His cloud of glory). As StG has correctly captured in his research paper on the subject (found in this thread) this is not a judgment concerning eternal life, that matter has already been settled and if you find yourself at the Judgment Seat of Christ in the air you have eternal life else you would not be there! That judgment is for the believers alone. The nations, still alive at the end of the great tribulation, are judged on the earth after the judgment in the air of the believers (born again regenerated Christians)

So the good news is if you are at the Judgment Seat of Christ in the air you have eternal life and that will not be taken away ever. The really good news is that if your works, your deeds, your words, your behavior, are found worthy then Christ will make you a co-king in His millennial reign. The bad news is that if they are not found worthy then that believer/servant will suffer outer darkness for some or all of the 1000 years millennial reign. We should not deceive ourselves into thinking all will be well at His judgment in the air just because we have eternal life when we believed in the Lord. No. Judgment begins at the house of God and the examples of the unworthy servants in Matthew and the non-overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 serve as fair warning to us about the type of works, deeds, and words that will be judged.

That brings us, or should bring us, to a very clear understanding that even the words spoken in this forum will be included at that judgment. Sometimes I fear brothers, that as we sit behind our computers typing away we do not sense the reality of that day in our hearts. For if we did, would we say the things that are often said in this forum against other believers? I think not. Do not misinterpret my meaning to suggest that you cannot challenge or disagree with any man's teaching. No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that there is a line that is crossed all too frequently and ends up in mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, willful misunderstanding and an argumentative spirit, against His servants and His children. This, I believe, will not only be judged at His coming, but can affect our spiritual progress in this life.

Jessie Penn Lewis spoke of this latter point of hindrance to spiritual progress when she wrote: " When you are in the spiritual plane and know the Holy Spirit in your spirit, you recognize there are grave consequences attached to all you do.You cannot go back from the spirit life without stepping into a pathway of failure. The moment you drop from the plane that you have reached you begin to lose spirit strength, and if you do not recover your place quickly you will ultimately sink into a deeper failure. The loss not only affects yourself but everyone with whom you have to deal. You may wrongly interpret or reject the words of a servant of the God and that would cause you to go back without knowing it. This hindrance to your spirit life will maintained while that wrong thought or attitude is held." Walking in the Will of God. JPL

So, look, to the brothers and sisters in this forum I caution and advise each of you to consider this matter carefully knowing that there are grave consequences in this life in our christian walk and spiritual progress.... and at His judgment seat when He returns. If you read this, you, and I, are without excuse. This is not a threat, not a scare tactic, but a call to each of you to examine your heart and your words and the content of your posts in truthfulness and attitude before the Lord. If He judges your works, deeds, and words as worthy, you will receive a reward and if not you will spend time in outer darkness. The Lord's reward or punishment applies just as much to me as it does to you.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

That brings us, or should bring us, to a very clear understanding that even the words spoken in this forum will be included at that judgment. Sometimes I fear brothers, that as we sit behind our computers typing away we do not sense the reality of that day in our hearts. For if we did, would we say the things that are often said in this forum against other believers? I think not. Do not misinterpret my meaning to suggest that you cannot challenge or disagree with any man's teaching. No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that there is a line that is crossed all too frequently and ends up in mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, willful misunderstanding and an argumentative spirit, against His servants and His children. This, I believe, will not only be judged at His coming, but can affect our spiritual progress in this life.

Drake

I do carefully consider what I say in the light of His word, often deleting or modifying posts which He is not pleased with.

My first response is to ask why does Drake never speak up when listening to Witness Lee or the Blendeds mock and condemn the entire body of Christ outside the LC's? Where does LSM get the license to do what Drake warns us about?

Drake, weren't you there at the Whistler, BC ITERO Kangaroo Court condemning Titus Chu? Did you stand up and warn them all about the Judgment Seat of Christ? I watched that nonsense and you were no where to be found.

Secondly, does not the scripture teach us to "test all things" including the teachings and actions of LSM's leaders? Did not the Apostle Paul call certain false workers "dogs?" When Paul told the Philippians, "Beware of dogs!" was that mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, or willful misunderstanding?

Thirdly, I do my best to address the teachings and actions of individual leaders, rather than judge their person or their motives, or judge every LC member. I admit that sometimes sarcasm is the best way to communicate, exposing the rampant hypocrisy at LSM. The bottom line for me is simple -- people got hurt, and LSM could care less. That's why this forum exists.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

What I am saying is that there is a line that is crossed all too frequently and ends up in mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, willful misunderstanding and an argumentative spirit, against His servants and His children. This, I believe, will not only be judged at His coming, but can affect our spiritual progress in this life.

You may wrongly interpret or reject the words of a servant of the God and that would cause you to go back without knowing it. This hindrance to your spirit life will maintained while that wrong thought or attitude is held.

This, of course, can apply to you, if and when you reject the words of the servants of God on this forum.

The Lord isn't bothered by crudeness. (He ran around with fishermen for gosh sakes.) He's bothered by insincerity.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I'm bringing this forward because I believe this should be front and center in every Christian's understanding and to guide and remind each of us of this most solemn event that awaits our future.

I need this reminder and so do we all.

Yet humour has its uses, as well. It's especially useful to skewer the pretensions of those who think they've laid hold in this age, while they're yet in the flesh of sin, and try to convince others of this. One person's delusion then becomes mass delusion. We don't skewer the person but the spirit of pretension behind them.

Of course disrespect is disrespect, and should be avoided. But humour is good, too. I like, for instance, Paul writing, "Since you bear so well with those who beat you about the head and face, you ought also bear with me for a bit." Sarcasm. Very effective as an attention-getter.

Jesus saying, "Behold! An Israelite without guile!" A zinger, not only a double but a triple entendre, probably. A very funny inside joke if you can catch it. But truly affectionate as well, I bet. Same with calling Cephas as 'Peter'. Another inside joke. Then, the more obvious "Sons of Thunder". This was a man who loved to stare straight-faced while you gasped in horror and stammered a reply. "You give them something to eat", is one of my favorites. Luke 9:13. Look at the disciples' response. But of course he was holy. "You are the Holy One of God!" Mark 1:24, passim. Yet, he hung out with sinners, and drank wine, and he laughed.

We'd have done better had we laughed at Lee's pretensions of grandeur. But we were naively drawn into his "most solemn" nonsense. His solemnity was a farce. I don't feel remiss to point it out. And there were some who were clearly drawn to his airs as a vehicle for their own. That one who constantly looked out for "ambition" in his flock, himself held such a reservoir as to presume be God's sole mouthpiece on earth today. And the sycophants crowded round, genuflecting and amenning. I don't know if it's funny or sad. But I guess I just like to laugh.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

We'd have done better had we laughed at Lee's pretensions of grandeur. But we were naively drawn into his "most solemn" nonsense. His solemnity was a farce. I don't feel remiss to point it out. And there were some who were clearly drawn to his airs as a vehicle for their own. That one who constantly looked out for "ambition" in his flock, himself held such a reservoir as to presume be God's sole mouthpiece on earth today. And the sycophants crowded round, genuflecting and amenning. I don't know if it's funny or sad. But I guess I just like to laugh.

So well said about that "devil" AMBITION. Lee could see "ambition" in everyone else, but not himself. Neither in his sons, Timothy and Phillip.

And where's that verse that condemns "ambition?" Apostle Paul told us that he was always "ambitious" to please the Lord. Yet Poor Paul would have been quarantined by Lee, along with John Ingalls and John So and so many others, and sent into "outer darkness" for the "unforgiveable" sin of ambition.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

...So, look, to the brothers and sisters in this forum I caution and advise each of you to consider this matter carefully knowing that there are grave consequences in this life in our christian walk and spiritual progress.... and at His judgment seat when He returns. If you read this, you, and I, are without excuse. This is not a threat, not a scare tactic, but a call to each of you to examine your heart and your words and the content of your posts in truthfulness and attitude before the Lord. If He judges your works, deeds, and words as worthy, you will receive a reward and if not you will spend time in outer darkness. The Lord's reward or punishment applies just as much to me as it does to you.
Drake

Drake,

This is not a response to your post, but a critique. Posts like this one could better be received if they began with "I repent..." or "I'm sorry...".

That is, it would be more meaningful if you told us you had examined your own heart and your own posts on this forum before the Lord...if you had actually done that, of course...and that He shined his light on you, and He judged your posts as to truthfulness and attitude. The results were that your truthfulness and attitude came up short of the standard for believers. Specifically, you saw your own need to repent to those forum members you have offended. That you saw your own attitude and prayed that the Lord would change your heart.

Then, in the coming days, and future posts, we forum members would hopefully be able to see, as you begin to bear the fruit of your repentance, that you had a change of heart and attitude toward us.

This would go a long way in removing any logs which may exist in your own eye/s and perhaps would encourage and inspire each of us to go to the Lord, in like manner, as you did. It also would eliminate any noise of sounding brass and/or tinkling cymbals that may drown out your message.

Please accept this critique of your post as my response to the door you opened. To be honest and truthful, and perhaps blunt, this post came across to me as unnecessary. Your posts often throw the first tomato (as this one did), then comes the food fight.

So, having said that, in your call for us to examine ourselves, your call for us to change, you first, we will follow your lead.

I apologize, in advance, if my critique of your post is offensive to you. My message is actually the same as yours, just from a different perspective.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

I apologize, in advance, if my critique of your post is offensive to you. My message is actually the same as yours, just from a different perspective.

Nell

No offense taken Nell.

Appreciate your critique and the sincerity in which it was delivered.

Drake

[Cal]

I do not believe outer darkness is for eternally saved believers. I believe outer darkness is another metaphor for perdition.

aron said that outer darkness is separation from the Lord. I agree with that. But Romans 8:38 says nothing can separate us from God's love. And 1 John 4:8 says God is love. So we cannot be separated from God's love, therefore we cannot be separated from God, therefore we cannot be in outer darkness.

The Bible approaches its warnings to us in many ways. Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body, but fear him who can throw you into hell. This was a general warning to everyone. But does that mean that God will throw believers into hell? No, but it does mean we should still fear the one who can, because he means business. So when approaching these types of warnings, we have to see there is some crossover. We are given a general word, but which can be taken differently by believers and unbelievers. Believers should fear the one that can cast people into hell, but they should not fear that they themselves will be cast into hell. But unbelievers should fear both.

I believe there are going to be rewards or lack thereof for each of God's people based on their faithfulness. But I do not believe there is going to be any separation from God. The Bible talks about being "beaten with stripes." But I think the stripes will be the regret felt from missing opportunities, not from some kind of severe deprivation in the kingdom age. And I certainly don't believe believers can be "touched by the second death." That word is to Smyrna, the suffering church, which was facing death everyday. Jesus was saying to them, "Don't worry about the first death, because you can't suffer the second death." He wasn't saying be fearful of facing the second death. That just doesn't fit in with the characteristic and example of that particular church. It doesn't make sense that Jesus would warn a faithful church about being in danger of the second death.

Do I think faithfulness is important? Absolutely. But Paul put it in terms of seeking a prize, not of avoiding a punishment.

Let's be perfectly frank here. Witness Lee abused these biblical warnings to control people. Even Drake's "warning" in post #349, for whatever else it he might hope it is, is this kind of tactic, learned from Lee. We should never invoke God's warnings about faithfulness to exert control over people. That's abuse, and one Lee regularly engaged in.

[HERn]

Hey Male Duck, I've got a warning for you, and it's from a genuine, verified, self-sacrificing Apostle that never ran a recreational vehicle manufacturing scheme or allowed his sons to run roughshod over the churches he established.

Galatians 1:8–9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I do not believe outer darkness is for eternally saved believers. I believe outer darkness is another metaphor for perdition.

aron said that outer darkness is separation from the Lord. I agree with that. But Romans 8:38 says nothing can separate us from God's love. And 1 John 4:8 says God is love. So we cannot be separated from God's love, therefore we cannot be separated from God, therefore we cannot be in outer darkness.

The Bible approaches its warnings to us in many ways. Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body, but fear him who can throw you into hell. This was a general warning to everyone. But does that mean that God will throw believers into hell? No, but it does mean we should still fear the one who can, because he means business. So when approaching these types of warnings, we have to see there is some crossover. We are given a general word, but which can be taken differently by believers and unbelievers. Believers should fear the one that can cast people into hell, but they should not fear that they themselves will be cast into hell. But unbelievers should fear both.

I believe there are going to be rewards or lack thereof for each of God's people based on their faithfulness. But I do not believe there is going to be any separation from God. The Bible talks about being "beaten with stripes." But I think the stripes will be the regret felt from missing opportunities, not from some kind of severe deprivation in the kingdom age. And I certainly don't believe believers can be "touched by the second death." That word is to Smyrna, the suffering church, which was facing death everyday. Jesus was saying to them, "Don't worry about the first death, because you can't suffer the second death." He wasn't saying be fearful of facing the second death. That just doesn't fit in with the characteristic and example of that particular church. It doesn't make sense that Jesus would warn a faithful church about being in danger of the second death.

Do I think faithfulness is important? Absolutely. But Paul put it in terms of seeking a prize, not of avoiding a punishment.

Let's be perfectly frank here. Witness Lee abused these biblical warnings to control people. Even Drake's "warning" in post #349, for whatever else it he might hope it is, is this kind of tactic, learned from Lee. We should never invoke God's warnings about faithfulness to exert control over people. That's abuse, and one Lee regularly engaged in.

When I said "separation from God" I was thinking of Peter, out there alone in the dark, weeping bitterly. But Jesus told Peter that he had prayed for him, and the Father had heard, and Peter would turn back to the light. So encouraging. God's love and Christ's intercession are stronger than our failures. "What can separate us from the love of God?"

I'll repeat a point I made earlier, because it's so worth repeating: I see Peter as Everyman. He's so well-documented in the NT because he's representative of the twelve, and us all. Blunder after blunder. But God overcomes. How can we not be encouraged, and hopeful?

And yes, we need to remind ourselves to be respectful. But we also need to call out ideas that deserve no respect, ideas that cause believers to lord over one another, to judge and threaten one another. If Lee was so concerned about "that solemn moment", then why did he borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars of church-goers' $$ to line his children's pockets? And then when it all went south, trying to railroad the investors by telling them, "consider it a donation"? Who are Lee & crew to threaten others with God's judgment?