Outer Darkness?

[Drake]

-1

Aron,

I don’t disagree with any of that... but there is more about this topic than what is found just in the book of Revelation .

You are engaging in selective reading... ignoring the whole in favor of a part. Did Witness Lee only teach on this topic from the book of a Revelation? No, of course not.

So, I asked you three questions about what you thought Witness Lee did not teach or believe on this topic. I asked because you need to be clear about what you want me to elaborate on and provide a reference.

Let’s go there now. Please answer those questions.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

...there is more about this topic than what is found just in the book of Revelation .

You are engaging in selective reading... ignoring the whole in favor of a part. Did Witness Lee only teach on this topic from the book of a Revelation? No, of course not.

The topic of the 1,000 year kingdom is found only in a few verses in Revelation 20. It doesn't reference Paul's epistles (one might wonder if it avoids them). Witness Lee made what appear to be categorical statements about participation in this kingdom, using slogans to encapsulate his teachings. I remembered one - "raptured or martyred". I provided quotes which appear to align with my memory. (SonstoGlory has similar memories).

You have to bear with me, as my memories of the time are now going on 30 years. But I do remember the slogans! They were useful then and still are!

You made a generic statement and I asked for attribution. Apparently you're now stonewalling. Which is fine - I expect little else.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

The topic of the 1,000 year kingdom is found only in a few verses in Revelation 20. It doesn't reference Paul's epistles (one might wonder if it avoids them). Witness Lee made what appear to be categorical statements about participation in this kingdom, using slogans to encapsulate his teachings. I remembered one - "raptured or martyred". I provided quotes which appear to align with my memory. (SonstoGlory has similar memories).

You have to bear with me, as my memories of the time are now going on 30 years. But I do remember the slogans! They were useful then and still are!

You made a generic statement and I asked for attribution. Apparently you're now stonewalling. Which is fine - I expect little else.

Ok.. I’m trying to help you remember.

Your recollections are in part.

If you are going to restrict your understanding of the millennial reign of Christ to a verse at the end of Revelation... and then ask me to explain what Witness Lee taught about the millennial reign and the overcomers just from that.. then you are not only engaging in selective reading but are trying to win an argument by selecting facts.

Besides that, If there is any stonewalling Aron it is on your part right now. You have p,entry of time to construct arguments from one book of the Bible but you cannot find the time to answer yes or no to three simple questions. I think the reason is obvious, you know and I know that once you incorporate all that Witness Lee taught on this topic your argument folds like a house of cards. You prefer to keep making assertions about what he taught based on a few selective verses because to open the aperture to include what he taught in whole allows you to frame his teaching in a way that suits your point of attack.

Else, you are not only stonewalling, sadly, you appear to be engaging in the deceitful art of sophistry.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm haven't been ignoring the conversation between Aron & Drake, but I woke up this morning with this thought in me. The servant who is given over to the "jailers" (Matthew 18: 21-35) to repay his king everything was a matter of forgiveness. The king forgave his debt, but this slave did not forgive his fellow slaves of their's. He became very demanding and even beat his fellow slaves. This demonstrates how much unforgiveness was in him.

This section in Matthew 18 starts (prior to the parable) with a discussion about forgiveness, and Jesus tells them to forgive "70 times 7." I think this shows that God takes forgiveness very seriously. A HUGE price was paid for this - Christ was sent to suffer and die for complete forgiveness. Everything was given in order to forgive us. And He did it in such a complete way that He says He won't even remember our sins! He uses phrases such as, "as far as the east is from the west" is how far they are removed (Psalm 103:12), and says plainly that He will "remember your sin no more." (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 8:12)

So my thought is that since this parable ends with the unforgiving slave being thrown into jail, until his entire debt is paid, it is a warning specifically about us having any unforgiveness in our lives.

[awareness]

Another great post Sons.

Plus, let's keep all this in perspective. What's a 1000 yrs? but alas, only a day.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Plus, let's keep all this in perspective. What's a 1000 yrs? but alas, only a day.

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

Well then, reigning with the Lord for a 1000 yrs will be a only a day. But if it doesn't apply to outer darkness, than outer darkness is in our solar system, and we're narrowing in on where it is. Maybe it's in the illusive dark matter out there somewhere. But it's going around the sun, every 365 earth days.

Teeth means food. Hope there's a kitchen and bathroom there. We can feel around in the darkness.

I know, this sounds absurd. That's why I think it's symbolic, not literal.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

A 1000 years in outer darkness is a very long time. Even a 20 year earth time jail sentence is a Very long time... multiply that x 50 and suddenly it has your attention.

Compound that with the incarceration definition that LofT prefers... not with a jailer... but a torturer. That should cause every believer to pursue the Lord and His interests, with purity of heart and forgiveness toward one another, diligent in all things and not slothful, redeeming the time as the day draws near, all the days of our lives.

If you think it is a fearful concept, then it is a healthy one for you to have. As Evangelical says, some of you are overplaying the fear aspect. Yet, whether you believe it or not does not change that there will be a judgement and the consequences are laid out in the Scripture there for us to consider. Furthermore, you heard it here so you will be without excuse. I myself do not live in fear and I do not know anyone that does... however, there are times it needs to brought to remembrance and the Spirit within nudges me back with grace and life.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm haven't been ignoring the conversation between Aron & Drake, but I woke up this morning with this thought in me. The servant who is given over to the "jailers" (Matthew 18: 21-35) to repay his king everything was a matter of forgiveness. The king forgave his debt, but this slave did not forgive his fellow slaves of their's. He became very demanding and even beat his fellow slaves. This demonstrates how much unforgiveness was in him.

This section in Matthew 18 starts (prior to the parable) with a discussion about forgiveness, and Jesus tells them to forgive "70 times 7." I think this shows that God takes forgiveness very seriously. A HUGE price was paid for this - Christ was sent to suffer and die for complete forgiveness. Everything was given in order to forgive us. And He did it in such a complete way that He says He won't even remember our sins! He uses phrases such as, "as far as the east is from the west" is how far they are removed (Psalm 103:12), and says plainly that He will "remember your sin no more." (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 8:12)

So my thought is that since this parable ends with the unforgiving slave being thrown into jail, until his entire debt is paid, it is a warning specifically about us having any unforgiveness in our lives.

What if the verse in Matthew 18:35 isn't translated as "jailer" how does that help or hurt this narrative of "Outer Darkness"?

The greek word here in Matthew 18 is basanistēs, meaning tormentor, Strongs G930.

Jailer, on the other hand - (See Acts 16:23 as an example) is desmophulax, meaning one who guards the prisoners.