Outer Darkness?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Plus, let's keep all this in perspective. What's a 1000 yrs? but alas, only a day.

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

Well then, reigning with the Lord for a 1000 yrs will be a only a day. But if it doesn't apply to outer darkness, than outer darkness is in our solar system, and we're narrowing in on where it is. Maybe it's in the illusive dark matter out there somewhere. But it's going around the sun, every 365 earth days.

Teeth means food. Hope there's a kitchen and bathroom there. We can feel around in the darkness.

I know, this sounds absurd. That's why I think it's symbolic, not literal.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

A 1000 years in outer darkness is a very long time. Even a 20 year earth time jail sentence is a Very long time... multiply that x 50 and suddenly it has your attention.

Compound that with the incarceration definition that LofT prefers... not with a jailer... but a torturer. That should cause every believer to pursue the Lord and His interests, with purity of heart and forgiveness toward one another, diligent in all things and not slothful, redeeming the time as the day draws near, all the days of our lives.

If you think it is a fearful concept, then it is a healthy one for you to have. As Evangelical says, some of you are overplaying the fear aspect. Yet, whether you believe it or not does not change that there will be a judgement and the consequences are laid out in the Scripture there for us to consider. Furthermore, you heard it here so you will be without excuse. I myself do not live in fear and I do not know anyone that does... however, there are times it needs to brought to remembrance and the Spirit within nudges me back with grace and life.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

A 1000 years in outer darkness is a very long time. Even a 20 year earth time jail sentence is a Very long time... multiply that x 50 and suddenly it has your attention.

Compound that with the incarceration definition that LofT prefers... not with a jailer... but a torturer. That should cause every believer to pursue the Lord and His interests, with purity of heart and forgiveness toward one another, diligent in all things and not slothful, redeeming the time as the day draws near, all the days of our lives.

If you think it is a fearful concept, then it is a healthy one for you to have. As Evangelical says, some of you are overplaying the fear aspect. Yet, whether you believe it or not does not change that there will be a judgement and the consequences are laid out in the Scripture there for us to consider. Furthermore, you heard it here so you will be without excuse. I myself do not live in fear and I do not know anyone that does... however, there are times it needs to brought to remembrance and the Spirit within nudges me back with grace and life.

Drake

Brother Drake 1000 years is a long time from our human earth perspective, but is nothing when compared to heavenly time.

As far as there being healthy fear? I remember when growing up every now and then we'd invite a hell fire preacher ... you know, like Jonathan Edwards', of the perchance infamous, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

Boy he'd scare the beejeebies out of us. I'm not sure if it was healthy or not, but that's what they did. As I grew up I saw thru belief based upon fear.

But fear was used to keep me in the LC. I was told of brothers that left, and how God punished them with death, or some such, for doing it.

So don't tell me that fear isn't used to keep people in the LC. I guess those hell fire preachers must of inoculated me, cuz I'm an example that fear doesn't work.

Christianity based on fear is bad Christianity, and is not scriptural (as one brother has quoted).

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

But fear was used to keep me in the LC. I was told of brothers that left, and how God punished them with death, or some such, for doing it.

So don't tell me that fear isn't used to keep people in the LC..

Not my experience, awareness. Like Evangelical, I never heard of it described like you are doing... like a strategy of some sort...

Whoa brothers, people might leave so let’s scare them into staying.... let’s tell them about Brother Sonso... he left and got hit by a school bus 3 days later.



Could there be a situation like that were a brother made a correlation? Sure. Is it a practice? Nah.

The reward and punishment of the millennial reign of Christ is another matter altogether. Doesn’t matter whether you fear it or not. Whether one believes it or not.... it will happen just as stated.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Not my experience, awareness. Like Evangelical, I never heard of it described like you are doing... like a strategy of some sort...

I'm sorry of it sounded like it was a strategy. It was more like it was part of the frenzy in those days. Apparently -- we don't know -- that wasn't your experience either.

But given the way you make it sound, the local church has lost that fire, it's old glory days. OMG! Has it become like every other church meeting in Christendom? The ones I grew up on, grew tired of, and walked away from? Then joined the local church because they were on fire. You make me even happier I got the boot. Thank you Jesus.

Originally Posted by Drake

Whoa brothers, people might leave so let’s scare them into staying.... let’s tell them about Brother Sonso... he left and got hit by a school bus 3 days later.

No he was a welder. Shortly after leaving the LC he was welding on an old gas tank, and it blew up. So it was told. Maybe it was made up, tailor-made on the fly, just for me (Christians do lie), I don't know ; I should have known better, it happened that I was welding in those days. It also happened that I did know better. I left ; and am still living, decades later, and God still continues to bless me. Those liars. That'll teach me to trust Christians ... my supposed brothers and sisters. Hey, they took after brother Lee ... oh, and Nee ... oh, and Kangas ... oh, and the Lee chosen elder that gave me the boot (may he rest in peace ... I wonder if he's reigning in Christ? I wonder if Nee and Lee are?)???

It was all clearly a product of the frenzy back then, the glory days, that you apparently know nothing of -- given having to go to dead meetings, and training's, and all ... and listening to dead Ron Kangas. (Kangas was trained to speak profoundly, at Princeton, but he was really dead. His wife Susanne knew. And it's very obvious to me when I listen to him now).

Originally Posted by Drake

Could there be a situation like that were a brother made a correlation? Sure. Is it a practice? Nah.

Go ahead, poke fun. I like a little fun. Maybe frenzy is the wrong word. It was more like a fanaticism. I had it. They had it. We all had it.

We were all given to God's eternal purpose. We were all in. The thought of leaving it - the LC - terrified us. The thought of a brother and/or sister leaving it terrified us. And it WAS frantic. We're talking God's eternal purpose.

Originally Posted by Drake

The reward and punishment of the millennial reign of Christ is another matter altogether. Doesn’t matter whether you fear it or not. Whether one believes it or not.... it will happen just as stated.

Good old ambition pops its ugly head up again. Ambition was a bad thing when I was in the LC. Troublesome brothers were always branded ambitious.

So it just serendipitously happened, that Lee's teaching on "The reward and punishment of the millennial reign of Christ" just happened to fit right into Lees' Chinese hive mind thinking, and therefore could be used to make brothers even more ambitious to be even more given to his movement?

Sounds like a strategy to me ... brought over from China. Lee knew what he was doing brother Drake. He wasn't Mr. Magoo, stumbling around the west coast of America. . . . haha, or was he? John Ingalls should have known better. That'll teach him (R.I.P.).

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Could there be a situation like that were a brother made a correlation? Sure. Is it a practice? Nah.

In my experience I would say it is way more than a correlation but maybe not quite as far as a practice.....but it gets close.

I can second (or fourth?) this by adding that I grew up hearing these kinds of things many times also:

"So and so left the church and now they have a child born with disabilities."

"So and so left and their plane crashed and they died."

"So and so left/was negative and they now have throat cancer."

Those are all statements I have heard in the LC said about real people. Note that these are not statements expressing that the person left and their life went downhill because of something they themselves did. The negative outcome is always something outside of any human's control indicating that it was God's punishment.

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church....."waiting for the other shoe to drop on backslidden ones" as it were. Those kind of thoughts and fears (that still pervade my mind today) are only created through repetition and reinforcement.

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers. I know some people can hear things spoken and disregard them as "bones not for consumption", and I wish I was that way, but some people, like me, have a more sensitive trusting disposition and grow up taking things to heart because we weren't raised to discern and question, just to accept and trust blindly. Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

[awareness]

There you go again Trapped, dropping another great post. What will we ever do with you?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

There you go again Trapped, dropping another great post. What will we ever do with you?

Thanks awareness, I actually really needed those positive words today. I appreciate it. You gave me a good laugh too.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church...

One thing you said at one point that I think is valuable is this: it was often strongly implied, that these things were so. But it might not get printed in HWMR, so as to keep the air of propriety (read: orthodoxy).

I grew up in an abusive home, and my family behaved differently when "company" came. Once the strangers left, then we got the "real family life." LC is like this in some ways that things are continually suggested as being so, without being able to confront them, because, "Where did we say anything like that" is the response.

It's extremely effective mind control because it's continual and repetitious, yet one can't confront it openly.

The other thing about Trapped's testimony is to imagine what it's like to grow up at 8 years old, 10 years old, and hear this stuff all the time. What kind of effect it has on one's ability to think. How many of them who leave the LC leave the faith! They just can't imagine God being any different from what they were brought up on.

Originally Posted by Trapped

If you have any more to say about this topic I am all ears. I have a hard time forgiving people, or if I manage to, it is hard for it to last or be "ongoing forgiveness". I know, "Christ is our forgiveness" but some of us have a harder time of it than others. Any more experience or advice would be much appreciated.
Unforgiveness truly is torture for the unforgiving!

I learned two things from the Master (aka Jesus the Lord, Rabbi Yeshua, the Teacher of Righteousness &c):
1. The gap between me and the most pathetic reprobate probably isn’t as great as the gap between me and the Most High God - my showing mercy to sinners on my path is an opportunity for God to show mercy to me.
2. As I do unto others God will do to me. If I forgive, I will be forgiven (Matt 6:12); if I don’t forgive, I won’t be forgiven (Matt 6:15).
Pretty simple stuff, really.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by aron

The other thing about Trapped's testimony is to imagine what it's like to grow up at 8 years old, 10 years old, and hear this stuff all the time. What kind of effect it has on one's ability to think. How many of them who leave the LC leave the faith! They just can't imagine God being any different from what they were brought up on.

Not only are you a young child carrying around that burden, but once you grow up some and realize that you were cheated out of knowing the real person and heart of God, you are then left to wrestle with the questions of "Where was God in all this? Why would He let me go on for so long under such a heavy burden without stepping in to clear it up? If He really wants a relationship with me, where was He to correct the misrepresentation and show Himself to me? Does He really love me or just love seeing me hurt?"

It really does a number on you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One thing you said at one point that I think is valuable is this: it was often strongly implied, that these things were so. But it might not get printed in HWMR, so as to keep the air of propriety (read: orthodoxy).

Reminds me of an Islamic practice. Muslims are permitted to deceive the "infidels" if their cause is being furthered. It's called "al-Taqiyya" meaning deception; the islamic word for concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies.

How else does one explain Drake's non-stop declarations, that after 40+ years in the LC's, he has never witnessed anything we discuss on this forum.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

In my experience I would say it is way more than a correlation but maybe not quite as far as a practice.....but it gets close.

I can second (or fourth?) this by adding that I grew up hearing these kinds of things many times also:

"So and so left the church and now they have a child born with disabilities."

"So and so left and their plane crashed and they died."

"So and so left/was negative and they now have throat cancer."

Those are all statements I have heard in the LC said about real people. Note that these are not statements expressing that the person left and their life went downhill because of something they themselves did. The negative outcome is always something outside of any human's control indicating that it was God's punishment.

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church....."waiting for the other shoe to drop on backslidden ones" as it were. Those kind of thoughts and fears (that still pervade my mind today) are only created through repetition and reinforcement.

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers. I know some people can hear things spoken and disregard them as "bones not for consumption", and I wish I was that way, but some people, like me, have a more sensitive trusting disposition and grow up taking things to heart because we weren't raised to discern and question, just to accept and trust blindly. Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

Trapped,

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless. I don’t know, but maybe we as humans want assurance that a similar random event of fate won’t also befall us so a reason or a cause is needed. The scripture that comes to mind is the man blind from his birth.. the people thought that maybe he or his parents sinned... but the Lord said it was so the works of God might be manifest.

My point is this, the Lord may act severely toward those who oppose His interests as with Pharoah, Herod, and yet sometimes He chastises His own harshly, or as StG prefers, firmly. Those that died in the wilderness probably consider it a 10 on the harsh scale. Moses was excluded from entering the good land after all that transpired because of one incident.... where he misrepresented God before the people. However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us.... rather, He wants us to enter the kingdom richly and has made all provision for us to do so. Yet, servants then are cast into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. That is a future matter, yet in this life God sends rain to the just and the unjust. I believe your testimony and the affect it had on you..... but it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day. Your experience, and that of others like it seems to issue primarily from the category of the man who was blind from birth. God may intervene as He pleases and we have to allow for that... but it is not a teaching used to subjugate and control the members of His Body. His ruling us is primarily by feeding us.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Drake,
Once again your post is a dodge of biblical proportions. It is becoming increasingly clear that either you don't have much first hand knowledge and experience of the same Local Church we are speaking of, or you have been walking around in a coma for 40 years. Of course there are other alternatives, but I would not like to think that a Christian brother would resort to that kind of deception on a public forum. (and I think you're quite right, by the way, about God will judge us for what we write on this forum)

Originally Posted by Drake

However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us...

Good point. So why did Witness Lee and many of his hand-picked elders/ministry leaders feel it so necessary to create such an atmosphere of abject fear of a man and the religion he invented? I mean, I never heard of someone fearing a dreadful death or accident if they spoke against Chuck Smith or left Calvary Chapel for another church. When's the last time you heard a member of Saddleback church say they had a fear of getting cancer if they didn't buy copious copies of A Purpose Driven Life, or spoke even the slightest criticism of Rick Warren...or God help them if they stopped attending Saddleback.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless.

If I didn't know you I would think this is one of the coldest and heartless things ever written on our little forum. For the time being, I'll just take into consideration that my first paragraph here is accurate. No Drake, we didn't have to seek for any explanations...the explanations were given in not-so-veiled insinuations and hardly subtle references to what would befall a Local Churcher who strayed from "The Lord's Recovery." This kind of cultic atmosphere was not uncommon or limited to those of us in Orange County near the headquarters on Ball Road. It was movement-wide because Witness Lee's influence was obviously movement-wide.

This matter of "Outer Darkness" is not a simple teaching or "doctrine" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. It is part and parcel of a larger system of error. It is impossible to take this teaching and discuss it apart from the entire gambit of the teachings, practices and history. I know that current LC members find it convenient to attempt to steer the discussion in a direction which diverts attention away from the realities that were, and now are, faced by followers of Witness Lee. So, steer away fellows...but don't expect to have much success around here.
-

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless. I don’t know, but maybe we as humans want assurance that a similar random event of fate won’t also befall us so a reason or a cause is needed. The scripture that comes to mind is the man blind from his birth.. the people thought that maybe he or his parents sinned... but the Lord said it was so the works of God might be manifest.

My point is this, the Lord may act severely toward those who oppose His interests as with Pharoah, Herod, and yet sometimes He chastises His own harshly, or as StG prefers, firmly. Those that died in the wilderness probably consider it a 10 on the harsh scale. Moses was excluded from entering the good land after all that transpired because of one incident.... where he misrepresented God before the people. However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us.... rather, He wants us to enter the kingdom richly and has made all provision for us to do so. Yet, servants then are cast into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. That is a future matter, yet in this life God sends rain to the just and the unjust. I believe your testimony and the affect it had on you..... but it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day. Your experience, and that of others like it seems to issue primarily from the category of the man who was blind from birth. God may intervene as He pleases and we have to allow for that... but it is not a teaching used to subjugate and control the members of His Body. His ruling us is primarily by feeding us.

Drake

Drake,

Thanks for your response.

The first thing to note is that, for my part, my post was really intended to exist within the confines of the fear-based "don't leave the LC or else" side topic that popped up, rather than within the larger topic of Outer Darkness in this thread. So your note that "it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day" is true, and I never meant to represent it as such. My bad if it came across that way.

As a fellow human I certainly understand your point about wanting assurance that the fate that befalls someone else won't also befall us. I do this myself constantly when I hear the news....if someone gets murdered, I comfort myself with the fact that it was done on the street at 2am, which is somewhere I will never be. If someone dies in a house fire, I reassure myself that that won't happen to me because they didn't have a fire extinguisher and I do, etc, etc. I assume many people do this, possibly often without thinking, as a coping mechanism to get through each day when there are so many terrible things going on around us. That's fine, but most of us are also not on the podium representing themselves as God's speaking on this earth and the only ones who have the high truths. When ones in that position ascribe to God's punishment events in people's lives that have nothing to do with God's punishment, an unhealthy and warped view of God and what He wants will inevitably result.

I'm struggling a little with the connection you made with your comment about a man being blind from his birth so that the works of God may be made manifest. To me that describes suffering that befalls a human, explicitly stated not as the consequence of an act of sin, that the Lord uses to glorify Himself, with the result (at least in John 9:1-12 that you alluded to) being positive for that person in their human life and a glory to God. On the other hand, the situations I mentioned were passed off as suffering/death as a direct consequence of an act of "sin" (leaving the LC) that was represented as the Lord's punishment upon that person. These are two very different things, but I may be missing something you intended to convey.

God's teaching is not used to control and subjugate members of the Body, as you said. Agreed! But the teaching of men within the LC was. And it was very effective and very damaging.

Trapped