If you were in Scottsdale would you take the Table..

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Evangelical - I don't know if you saw this from a few posts back. It was regarding the question you had asked: "For me it's very simple. Is your gathering the original church in Scottsdale or is it a church which came from the original one?"

As I understand it, your church was started by Bill Freeman while he created his own little faction out of the recovery with "his followers", and moved to Scottsdale. Doesn't really matter now how it started. Now let's say you're the church in the city, so you got a lampstand, you got it all going on! Hopefully all those denominations get brought down and everyone joins your (i.e. the local) church (I'm paraphrasing Nee here). That's why you meet separately from the other churches, right? Because if not, you're quoting of Nee is in vain I'm afraid, there is some responsibility with being the local church in the city.

In other words I hope it goes beyond being merely a "better version of "The Recovery"", like you said in your first post. I hope you see the meaning and value of the lampstand in the city according to Nee or Lee, and live up to that calling.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Now let's say you're the church in the city, so you got a lampstand, you got it all going on! Hopefully all those denominations get brought down and everyone joins your (i.e. the local) church (I'm paraphrasing Nee here). That's why you meet separately from the other churches, right? Because if not, you're quoting of Nee is in vain I'm afraid, there is some responsibility with being the local church in the city.

In other words I hope it goes beyond being merely a "better version of "The Recovery"", like you said in your first post. I hope you see the meaning and value of the lampstand in the city according to Nee or Lee, and live up to that calling.

Without addressing all your statements here, it's a somewhat fair synopsis I suppose (although no one is actively trying to bring any other group "down").

So here's the main point/original question from the first post which started this thread:

If you were in the area, would you come and enjoy the Lord with us and take the Lord's table with us? (all are certainly welcome)
And please, I would also appreciate an explanation of why or why not.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Without addressing all your statements here, it's a somewhat fair synopsis I suppose (although no one is actively trying to bring any other group "down").

So here's the main point/original question from the first post which started this thread:

Then I probably would, you know?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Then I probably would, you know?

Awesome & HALLELUJAH - You are most welcome to take the Lord's table here and to enjoy Christ with us!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As I understand it, your church was started by Bill Freeman while he created his own little faction out of the recovery with "his followers", and moved to Scottsdale. Doesn't really matter now how it started. Now let's say you're the church in the city, so you got a lampstand, you got it all going on! Hopefully all those denominations get brought down and everyone joins your (i.e. the local) church (I'm paraphrasing Nee here). That's why you meet separately from the other churches, right? Because if not, you're quoting of Nee is in vain I'm afraid, there is some responsibility with being the local church in the city.

In other words I hope it goes beyond being merely a "better version of "The Recovery"", like you said in your first post. I hope you see the meaning and value of the lampstand in the city according to Nee or Lee, and live up to that calling.

StG,

Per your inquiry I would refer you back to #34.

We often focus on the mechanics of the teaching and practice of the ground of the church in a city ... but we have to consider whether our teaching and practice issues from the authority of the Holy Spirit as well. Local churches are the reprint of the Spirit therefore there is a fellowship among the churches in the larger reality... the One Body of Christ. When I have lived in places where there are many local churches in close proximity to each other there is a sweet fellowship between them that opens the aperture to experiences of the One Body. So there is not only the ground but the fellowship as Brother Evangelical describes above. Only one way to test that.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

Per your inquiry I would refer you back to #34.

We often focus on the mechanics of the teaching and practice of the ground of the church in a city ... but we have to consider whether our teaching and practice issues from the authority of the Holy Spirit as well. Local churches are the reprint of the Spirit therefore there is a fellowship among the churches in the larger reality... the One Body of Christ. When I have lived in places where there are many local churches in close proximity to each other there is a sweet fellowship between them that opens the aperture to experiences of the One Body. So there is not only the ground but the fellowship as Brother Evangelical describes above. Only one way to test that.

Drake

Thanks for the reply. And post #34 of yours suggests going to a gathering with the ones who meet as the Church in Phoenix. I am certainly open and will mention it to one of the brothers who I think has had some recent contact. We may be lead of Him to go over and share Christ with those saints!

(BTW - Right now we are traveling a few weeks in the aforementioned RV up in Colorado, and unfortunately we keep having to break camp on Sundays to travel to our next destination - just how it's all working out. Therefore I haven't, and won't, be able to gather with any LC - or other saints - up here on Sundays!)

So, Drake, the original question and purpose of this thread was, "If you were in Scottsdale, would you take the table and enjoy Christ with us?"

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for the reply. And post #34 of yours suggests going to a gathering with the ones who meet as the Church in Phoenix. I am certainly open and will mention it to one of the brothers who I think has had some recent contact. We may be lead of Him to go over and share Christ with those saints!

(BTW - Right now we are traveling a few weeks in the aforementioned RV up in Colorado, and unfortunately we keep having to break camp on Sundays to travel to our next destination - just how it's all working out. Therefore I haven't, and won't, be able to gather with any LC - or other saints - up here on Sundays!)

So, Drake, the original question and purpose of this thread was, "If you were in Scottsdale, would you take the table and enjoy Christ with us?"

StG

Colorado? Sounds like fun.... but weren’t they having fires in the state? Are you far enough away? Durango was in the news and some roads were closed?

I still don’t know enough about Scottsdale Church to say for sure that I would break bread. When I visit community churches I am before the Lord not to engage in anything that would offend His headship or the authority of the Holy Spirit. Breaking bread is a serious matter and that is why I said before that a believer examines and judges carefully in that and should not be criticized for choosing not to partake of it.

Denominations build walls between Christians. As long as denominations stand the wall stands and the best that can be achieved is shaking hands over the walls. You or I may jump the wall, have a meeting, but when we leave we jump back over the wall and the wall still stands. However, perhaps the Scottsdale Church has built a wall of its own. I don’t know for sure.... but maybe your wall is built on the border of Scottsdale, that is, you will not have fellowship with other like-minded local churches such as the church in a Phoenix right next door.

Had you asked would I be willing to meet with you in Scottsdale or in the Scottsdale Church I would have said yes for sure, no doubt. But you asked specifically about breaking bread which is a serious matter.... so, I still do not know.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

Had you asked would I be willing to meet with you in Scottsdale or in the Scottsdale Church I would have said yes for sure, no doubt. But you asked specifically about breaking bread which is a serious matter.... so, I still do not know.

Yes, a very serious matter indeed. And that is why it is a very serious thing for a Christian (or group of Christians) to refuse to take the table with another Christian (or group of Christians) for purely sectarian reasons. In the case of the Local Church of Witness Lee, fellowship at the table is refused because of non-essential, non-biblical ecclesiastical reasons - aka: "you don't do church like us and so we will not have the table with you". The clear implication of this kind of sectarian stand is that "because you do not meet under our strict, narrow interpretation of a few descriptive verses we do not consider you worthy of breaking bread with". In actuality, of course, the real reason is that "you do not accept the person and work of Witness Lee - you do not accept him as the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age, therefore you are unqualified and unworthy for us to break bread with".

This kind of sectarian (and some would say cultic) attitude/stand is exemplified by the words and actions of the Blended Brothers. To put a finer point on this, who could ever forget the ominous declaration by LSM President and Most Blended of Blendeds, Benson Phillips, "the process of sanctification is only taking place in the Lord's Recovery" (close paraphrase). So it's no wonder the average rank&file LC member refuses to take the Lord's table outside the doors of a LC meeting hall. After all, who wants to break bread with an unsanctified person or church....surely the Lord wouldn't want us to do that...now would he?
-

[Drake]

-1

UntoHim,

Sanctification is a separate topic. Has no relevance in this discussion.

Your characterization must be referring to someone else you were thinking of.

Does not apply to me.

Thx
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

I still don’t know enough about Scottsdale Church to say for sure that I would break bread. When I visit community churches I am before the Lord not to engage in anything that would offend His headship or the authority of the Holy Spirit. Breaking bread is a serious matter and that is why I said before that a believer examines and judges carefully in that and should not be criticized for choosing not to partake of it.

Drake, the scripture admonishes us to examine ourselves, and not to examine others, and to "prove ourselves" so that we do not partake of His table in an "unworthy manner." (I Cor 11.27-29)

Yet you still promote false un-biblical standards on all other congregations, such as the Church in Scottsdale, as if you are the Lord passing sentence on the hearts of all God's children who gather in His name to break bread. You judge them on their name (calling them instead "Scottsdale Church"), and their origins (former LC minister Bill Freeman), and their lack of association with LSM (as if some registration with a publisher somehow legitimizes them.)

Yet when you have witnessed all the corruption and unrighteousness at LSM headquarters, you have no thought to judge them. So many scripture stood ready to convict them, yet you can only find excuses for them based on abstruse readings of exclusive doctrines. You regularly dismiss the plain words of scripture for your obscure esoteric principles nobody else even has heard about.

Reminds me of the Lord's rebuke to the Pharisees, "Woe to you hypocrites, you pay tithes on mint, spices, and herbs, yet you pass by justice and the love of God." (Luke 11.42)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

We often focus on the mechanics of the teaching and practice of the ground of the church in a city ... but we have to consider whether our teaching and practice issues from the authority of the Holy Spirit as well. Local churches are the reprint of the Spirit therefore there is a fellowship among the churches in the larger reality... the One Body of Christ.

Regarding the fellowship you describe, I think the issue in this case would not be whether the church in Scottsdale would participate in fellowship with the nearby local churches, but whether the nearby local churches would participate in the fellowship if the church in Scottsdale was involved.

I am not aware of any LSM/WL related local church that deigns to fellowship with another legitimate but non-LSM local church that does not base its fellowship on WL's material or speaking. I have heard plenty of times descriptions from co-workers about this concept of the "standing" of proximate local churches....they dance around it with fancy phrases ("in the central lane of the recovery" is one exact phrase I've heard, for example) but come on......what that really means is "with the Witness Lee program"!!!

I have also lived in places where there are local churches in close proximity to each other, or local churches that sprang up in nearby cities from the natural growth of a local church.....and in over 5 years there has not been one single blending meeting together of those local churches in neighboring cities. If that is a requirement you place on the legitimacy of the local churches then many of the local churches do not meet that requirement!

[Ohio]

Nearly every city in the Midwest now has two LC's, one with LSM and one not with LSM. They are composed of saints who once loved and met with each other. The only difference between them is the materials they read.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Regarding the fellowship you describe, I think the issue in this case would not be whether the church in Scottsdale would participate in fellowship with the nearby local churches, but whether the nearby local churches would participate in the fellowship if the church in Scottsdale was involved.!

Ok. Fair question.

StG, how would you feel about opening this up with your elders?

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok. Fair question.

StG, how would you feel about opening this up with your elders?

Drake

The brother I spoke about, who has had some contact with LCers over the years (his dad is in the LC now), is a leading one in Scottsdale. I do intend to fellowship with him when we return to Arizona. So we'll see!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Regarding the fellowship you describe, I think the issue in this case would not be whether the church in Scottsdale would participate in fellowship with the nearby local churches, but whether the nearby local churches would participate in the fellowship if the church in Scottsdale was involved.

I am not aware of any LSM/WL related local church that deigns to fellowship with another legitimate but non-LSM local church that does not base its fellowship on WL's material or speaking. I have heard plenty of times descriptions from co-workers about this concept of the "standing" of proximate local churches....they dance around it with fancy phrases ("in the central lane of the recovery" is one exact phrase I've heard, for example) but come on......what that really means is "with the Witness Lee program"!!!

I will use Moses Lake, Washington as a frame of reference. Broke with LSM in 1986, but still consider themselves a local church. When I was meeting with the church in Bellevue in the 1990's once of the elders when asked about Moses Lake used the term "rebel church". Since then different cities in Washington state have taken the ground. Those in closer proximity to Moses Lake are Ephrata and Yakima. Along the lines of Trapped post regarding Scottsdale, it comes down to what would the nearby local churches do?
After all it takes two.
Just as would the Church in Ephrata be open to fellowship with the Church in Moses Lake, would the Church in Phoenix be open to the Church in Scottsdale?
Have attitudes changed towards ones who have parted ways with LSM?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Terry

Have attitudes changed towards ones who have parted ways with LSM?

Now that's the question! (Division is all really a bunch of non-essential silliness, isn't it!?)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Now that's the question! (Division is all really a bunch of non-essential silliness, isn't it!?)

It's like a pyramid. In practice if attitudes change it begins with the blended co-workers. Cascades down to local elders and maybe then to congregations of each locality.
This is due in part to the blended co-workers equaling the feeling of the body. Whatever the co-workers may say, that's received as "feeling of the body". Agree or disagree, elders feel to honor the feeling of the body as expressed through the blended brothers.
Whether the elders from the church in Phoenix choose to fellowship with the Church in Scottsdale, it becomes a matter of "honoring feeling of the body". (i.e. what does Anaheim say?)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Terry

It's like a pyramid. In practice if attitudes change it begins with the blended co-workers. Cascades down to local elders and maybe then to congregations of each locality.
This is due in part to the blended co-workers equaling the feeling of the body. Whatever the co-workers may say, that's received as "feeling of the body". Agree or disagree, elders feel to honor the feeling of the body as expressed through the blended brothers.
Whether the elders from the church in Phoenix choose to fellowship with the Church in Scottsdale, it becomes a matter of "honoring feeling of the body". (i.e. what does Anaheim say?)

Well, at risk of speaking out of turn, I think it has been tried before to no avail, or at the least, not much. That is, SC brothers were open to starting some LC fellowship, but not much happened. Again, I just vaguely remember hearing something along those lines, so I may not be entirely accurate (and am conveying this from 3rd hand recollection).

But withersoever the Lord leads!