Latter Rain, Kingdom Now, & the Lord's Recovery

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This would be the first time, to my recollection, on this forum or elsewhere, that Lee would be accused of teaching salvation by works.

Where did I accuse him of that? I'm arguing he teaches a 2nd coming based on works aka dominionism. I never brought up the issue of eternal salvation. Freudian slip?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Where did I accuse him of that? I'm arguing he teaches a 2nd coming based on works aka dominionism. I never brought up the issue of eternal salvation. Freudian slip?

If it's nothing to do with eternal salvation then what is the real problem with works again? If it doesn't affect salvation then overcoming by works is a non-issue. It is no different to saying "I will show you my faith by my works". You seem to be saying that overcoming does not require effort on our part, you seem to ignore man's responsibility which seems ultra-Calvinistic.

You made 3 false allegations:

"Lee's version of overcoming is one that's motivated by setting Satan up as a boogeyman yet to be defeated rather than overcoming through faith in Christ's work "

Firstly I think your language "Satan up as a boogeyman" is disrespectful and not taking the matter of Satan seriously. Lee definitely teaches overcoming through Christ's work. Satan is defeated, but his works are to be overcome.

"knowing Satan has already been defeated on the cross."

Lee teaches that Satan has already been defeated on the cross and that the way to defeat Satan is by the cross. There's no disagreement there.

Lee does not motivate overcoming by setting Satan up as a boogeyman, it is the biblical motivation for overcoming which is to be rewarded and hear "well done good and faithful servant". This is well documented in Lee's teachings. It is motivated by faithfulness.


" Scripture says we overcome through the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 12:11) and not through an ideal."

The issue is that you are arguing from what you assume to know of Lee's teachings (which in essence constitute straw-man arguments) and not addressing Lee's teachings themselves. Lee states many times that we overcome by the blood.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If it's nothing to do with eternal salvation then what is the real problem with works again? If it doesn't affect salvation then overcoming by works is a non-issue. It is no different to saying "I will show you my faith by my works". You seem to be saying that overcoming does not require effort on our part, you seem to ignore man's responsibility which seems ultra-Calvinistic.

Believing it will take some sort of concerted work or effort by Christians, as in the LC's doctrine of locality along with the "bride of Christ" doctrine, to bring about the second coming of Christ is a form of Christian dominionism and it is a heretical belief. The problem is this inadvertently denies the finished work on the cross and God's sovereignty in the ability to establish his own church.

If you believe you can overcome the works of Satan by denying the flesh/world, then all the ascetics of all the world's religions have one up on you. This was the mentality of the Pharisees. They fasted twice a week thinking that righteousness came through this type of denial of the flesh. They too thought they were overcoming the world through these types of things.

Christians overcome through Christ's obedience and through his completed work on the cross and not by any works of our own, only faith. Can works accompany faith? Of course but our efforts, like setting up LC's in every city, do not and will not defeat the works of Satan. That is a work left to Christ alone (1 John 3:8).

You made 3 false allegations:

"Lee's version of overcoming is one that's motivated by setting Satan up as a boogeyman yet to be defeated rather than overcoming through faith in Christ's work "

Firstly I think your language "Satan up as a boogeyman" is disrespectful and not taking the matter of Satan seriously. Lee definitely teaches overcoming through Christ's work. Satan is defeated, but his works are to be overcome.

By your own words you as an "overcomers" believe you will overcome the works of Satan when scripture teaches that Christ is the one that came to destroy Satan's works (1 John 3:8).

"knowing Satan has already been defeated on the cross."

Lee teaches that Satan has already been defeated on the cross and that the way to defeat Satan is by the cross. There's no disagreement there.

Lee does not motivate overcoming by setting Satan up as a boogeyman, it is the biblical motivation for overcoming which is to be rewarded and hear "well done good and faithful servant". This is well documented in Lee's teachings. It is motivated by faithfulness.

Overcoming and our works have no correlation. Overcoming is achieved only by faith in Christ.

The issue is that Lee's solution to "overcoming" is denying or coming out of denominations and setting up LC's in every city across the globe. This is a concerted works based system meant to bringing about Christ's return and is dominionist in nature. This teaching can also be found in the Pentecostal Latter Rain movement.

The LC's extra-biblical revelation goes that "one church one city" will be the model for Christians before the return of Christ. This reality being a sort of preparation of the "bride". This is where the doctrine of the "bride of Christ" being the church then comes into play. This is all rooted in charismania.

" Scripture says we overcome through the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 12:11) and not through an ideal."

The issue is that you are arguing from what you assume to know of Lee's teachings (which in essence constitute straw-man arguments) and not addressing Lee's teachings themselves. Lee states many times that we overcome by the blood.

Isn't that what you are doing?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Believing it will take some sort of concerted work or effort by Christians, as in the LC's doctrine of locality along with the "bride of Christ" doctrine, to bring about the second coming of Christ is a form of Christian dominionism and it is a heretical belief. The problem is this inadvertently denies the finished work on the cross and God's sovereignty in the ability to establish his own church.

That is nonsense because the local churches achieve this by "as the Lord leads". The finished work on the cross is for salvation and not for us to not do anything.

And on what authority do you say it is heretical other than your own?

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you believe you can overcome the works of Satan by denying the flesh/world, then all the ascetics of all the world's religions have one up on you. This was the mentality of the Pharisees. They fasted twice a week thinking that righteousness came through this type of denial of the flesh. They too thought they were overcoming the world through these types of things.

The Bible teaches to deny the flesh and the self. Do you deny this? Your accusations are baseless and ignorant. You are confusing the righteousness of salvation (as the Pharisees lived) with righteousness of practical living.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Christians overcome through Christ's obedience and through his completed work on the cross and not by any works of our own, only faith. Can works accompany faith? Of course but our efforts, like setting up LC's in every city, do not and will not defeat the works of Satan. That is a work left to Christ alone (1 John 3:8).

By your own words you as an "overcomers" believe you will overcome the works of Satan when scripture teaches that Christ is the one that came to destroy Satan's works (1 John 3:8).

Overcoming and our works have no correlation. Overcoming is achieved only by faith in Christ's finished work.

To say that overcoming and our works have no correlation means that everyone is an overcomer. So why would Christ talk about "to him who overcomes". If everyone is an overcomer there is no incentive and so Revelation is pointless. You are confusing salvation with how we live the Christian life and Christ does not discourage anyone from overcoming "as He also overcame":

Rev 3:21
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

It is well documented in Lee's teaching that we overcome only by Christ not ourselves. Yet, there are certain things we must do, such as pray, read the Word, fellowship, deny the self etc. You seem to be advocating a faith that is without any works at all which is not real faith (James 2:18). Only Satan would discourage Christians from even trying to overcome because of some twisted understanding of faith and works. You sound a lot like an ultra-Calvinist who thinks God's sovereignty will take care of everything and "Christ did so I don't have to".

Originally Posted by Jo S

The issue is that Lee's solution to "overcoming" is denying or coming out of denominations and setting up LC's in every city across the globe. This is a concerted works based system meant to bringing about Christ's return and is dominionist in nature. This teaching can also be found in the Pentecostal Latter Rain movement.

The LC's extra-biblical revelation goes that "one church one city" will be the model for Christians before the return of Christ. This reality being a sort of preparation of the "bride". This is where the doctrine of the "bride of Christ" being the church then comes into play. This is all rooted in charismania.

Isn't that what you are doing?

So what is the church for then? The church shouldn't do anything to prepare for Christ's return?

Where does the Bible say that Christ intended to return to a "messy house" after leaving it in good order as one church per city?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is nonsense because the local churches achieve this by "as the Lord leads".

And on what authority do you say it is heretical other than your own?

On what authority did Lee claim one church one city is scripture? And by what standard would you judge what my authority or his authority is either way?

The Bible teaches to deny the flesh and the self. Do you deny this? Your accusations are baseless and ignorant.

Scripture teaches there are two approaches to denying the flesh. One is obedience that comes by faith and the other is works through self-righteousness. You fail to mention both sides. How is it then that I am the ignorant one?

To say that overcoming and our works have no correlation means that everyone is an overcomer. You are confusing salvation with how we live the Christian life and Christ does not discourage anyone from overcoming "as He also overcame":

Overcoming comes through faith alone. Not everyone has faith in Jesus Christ so how then do come to this conclusion?

Rev 3:21
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

The question is how did Jesus overcome? By works of his own or by faith unto death on a cross?

It is well documented in Lee's teaching that we overcome only by Christ not ourselves. Yet, there are certain things we must do, You seem to be advocating a faith that is without any works at all which is not real faith (James 2:18). Only Satan would discourage Christians from even trying to overcome because of some twisted understanding of faith and works.

This is a contradiction in thought. If we overcome only by Christ, why must we do anything of our own to overcome? "Must" implies a means to an end, the end being personal victory (overcoming). By this you then confirm that you adopt a systematic approach to overcoming through works "such as pray, read the Word, fellowship, deny the self etc."

Prayer and fellowship should be the outflow and result of faith in Christ in knowing that he himself already overcame the world.

Works do not result in overcoming

Overcoming is the result of faith and a genuine faith produces works.

So what is the church for then? The church shouldn't do anything to prepare for Christ's return?

Where does the Bible say that Christ intended to return to a "messy house" after leaving it in good order as one church per city?

In Luke 18:8, Christ questions whether he will even find faith on the earth when he returns. Doesn't sound like things will be so tidy to me.

So what exactly do you think Christians need to do to prepare for Christ's return?

Where exactly in scripture does it say we need to make any preparations to his own body before he returns?

[Evangelical]

I know the difference between faith and works. You are preaching to the converted, not a Catholic. Both Nee and Lee taught that it is a mistake to think that salvation comes to us freely while overcoming comes as a result of our own effort.

See Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 2) Vol. 24: The Overcoming Life by Watchman Nee

I can provide other ministry material references if you like.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I know the difference between faith and works. You are preaching to the converted, not a Catholic. Both Nee and Lee taught that it is a mistake to think that salvation comes to us freely while overcoming comes as a result of our own effort.

See Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 2) Vol. 24: The Overcoming Life by Watchman Nee

I can provide other ministry material references if you like.

You already made the point that you have an intellectual understanding of the differences between faith and works through your argument here. No one questions that you are a convert of Witness Lee and not of the Catholic church. By making that remark maybe you assume I'm Catholic. Otherwise why would you so randomly bring up Catholicism here

Why do you insist on providing me with references? I certainly don't question your willingness to defer to links and other's material because you've demonstrated this over and over again. If I'm looking for a reference, I'll be sure to ask you at this point although I'd rather you yourself articulate what it is that you believe Nee and Lee taught. Otherwise by you constantly deferring without an actual argument in support of your reference, I question if you truly understand what you are presenting here of if you are simply doing so to hint at a perceived ignorance on my part.

If Nee and Lee taught that salvation does not come freely by God's grace and that overcoming the world comes by works like praying or reading scripture or setting up a one church per city model like the Latter Rain Pentecostals taught and not by faith (1 John 5:4-5), they taught wrong.

"4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn. 5:1 ESV)