Latter Rain, Kingdom Now, & the Lord's Recovery

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Lee's version of overcoming is one that's motivated by setting Satan up as a boogeyman yet to be defeated rather than overcoming through faith in Christ's work knowing Satan has already been defeated on the cross. My bible says we overcome through the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 12:11) and not through an ideal.

This is nonsense and unfounded allegations. Please educate yourself about Lee's teachings first, before posting? Lee teaches what the bible says - that overcoming is by the blood of the Lamb. That is well documented throughout his ministry books. Another aspect of overcoming is by not loving the soul life unto death.

You are confusing Lee's teachings about denial of the self/flesh with works-based salvation. Your misconceptions are equivalent to saying that these martyrs in Revelation who did not love their soul unto death and obtained an overcomer's reward, are "saving themselves by works".

This would be the first time, to my recollection, on this forum or elsewhere, that Lee would be accused of teaching salvation by works. Anyone who knows Lee's teaching knows he taught that everyone gets to go to heaven because of Christ - "call on the name of the Lord 3 times and you will be saved". Lee taught and believed in eternal security. The fact that you are accusing him of salvation by works and not 5 point Calvinisms proves how little you know about his teachings.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This would be the first time, to my recollection, on this forum or elsewhere, that Lee would be accused of teaching salvation by works.

Where did I accuse him of that? I'm arguing he teaches a 2nd coming based on works aka dominionism. I never brought up the issue of eternal salvation. Freudian slip?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Where did I accuse him of that? I'm arguing he teaches a 2nd coming based on works aka dominionism. I never brought up the issue of eternal salvation. Freudian slip?

If it's nothing to do with eternal salvation then what is the real problem with works again? If it doesn't affect salvation then overcoming by works is a non-issue. It is no different to saying "I will show you my faith by my works". You seem to be saying that overcoming does not require effort on our part, you seem to ignore man's responsibility which seems ultra-Calvinistic.

You made 3 false allegations:

"Lee's version of overcoming is one that's motivated by setting Satan up as a boogeyman yet to be defeated rather than overcoming through faith in Christ's work "

Firstly I think your language "Satan up as a boogeyman" is disrespectful and not taking the matter of Satan seriously. Lee definitely teaches overcoming through Christ's work. Satan is defeated, but his works are to be overcome.

"knowing Satan has already been defeated on the cross."

Lee teaches that Satan has already been defeated on the cross and that the way to defeat Satan is by the cross. There's no disagreement there.

Lee does not motivate overcoming by setting Satan up as a boogeyman, it is the biblical motivation for overcoming which is to be rewarded and hear "well done good and faithful servant". This is well documented in Lee's teachings. It is motivated by faithfulness.


" Scripture says we overcome through the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 12:11) and not through an ideal."

The issue is that you are arguing from what you assume to know of Lee's teachings (which in essence constitute straw-man arguments) and not addressing Lee's teachings themselves. Lee states many times that we overcome by the blood.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If it's nothing to do with eternal salvation then what is the real problem with works again? If it doesn't affect salvation then overcoming by works is a non-issue. It is no different to saying "I will show you my faith by my works". You seem to be saying that overcoming does not require effort on our part, you seem to ignore man's responsibility which seems ultra-Calvinistic.

Believing it will take some sort of concerted work or effort by Christians, as in the LC's doctrine of locality along with the "bride of Christ" doctrine, to bring about the second coming of Christ is a form of Christian dominionism and it is a heretical belief. The problem is this inadvertently denies the finished work on the cross and God's sovereignty in the ability to establish his own church.

If you believe you can overcome the works of Satan by denying the flesh/world, then all the ascetics of all the world's religions have one up on you. This was the mentality of the Pharisees. They fasted twice a week thinking that righteousness came through this type of denial of the flesh. They too thought they were overcoming the world through these types of things.

Christians overcome through Christ's obedience and through his completed work on the cross and not by any works of our own, only faith. Can works accompany faith? Of course but our efforts, like setting up LC's in every city, do not and will not defeat the works of Satan. That is a work left to Christ alone (1 John 3:8).

You made 3 false allegations:

"Lee's version of overcoming is one that's motivated by setting Satan up as a boogeyman yet to be defeated rather than overcoming through faith in Christ's work "

Firstly I think your language "Satan up as a boogeyman" is disrespectful and not taking the matter of Satan seriously. Lee definitely teaches overcoming through Christ's work. Satan is defeated, but his works are to be overcome.

By your own words you as an "overcomers" believe you will overcome the works of Satan when scripture teaches that Christ is the one that came to destroy Satan's works (1 John 3:8).

"knowing Satan has already been defeated on the cross."

Lee teaches that Satan has already been defeated on the cross and that the way to defeat Satan is by the cross. There's no disagreement there.

Lee does not motivate overcoming by setting Satan up as a boogeyman, it is the biblical motivation for overcoming which is to be rewarded and hear "well done good and faithful servant". This is well documented in Lee's teachings. It is motivated by faithfulness.

Overcoming and our works have no correlation. Overcoming is achieved only by faith in Christ.

The issue is that Lee's solution to "overcoming" is denying or coming out of denominations and setting up LC's in every city across the globe. This is a concerted works based system meant to bringing about Christ's return and is dominionist in nature. This teaching can also be found in the Pentecostal Latter Rain movement.

The LC's extra-biblical revelation goes that "one church one city" will be the model for Christians before the return of Christ. This reality being a sort of preparation of the "bride". This is where the doctrine of the "bride of Christ" being the church then comes into play. This is all rooted in charismania.

" Scripture says we overcome through the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 12:11) and not through an ideal."

The issue is that you are arguing from what you assume to know of Lee's teachings (which in essence constitute straw-man arguments) and not addressing Lee's teachings themselves. Lee states many times that we overcome by the blood.

Isn't that what you are doing?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Believing it will take some sort of concerted work or effort by Christians, as in the LC's doctrine of locality along with the "bride of Christ" doctrine, to bring about the second coming of Christ is a form of Christian dominionism and it is a heretical belief. The problem is this inadvertently denies the finished work on the cross and God's sovereignty in the ability to establish his own church.

That is nonsense because the local churches achieve this by "as the Lord leads". The finished work on the cross is for salvation and not for us to not do anything.

And on what authority do you say it is heretical other than your own?

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you believe you can overcome the works of Satan by denying the flesh/world, then all the ascetics of all the world's religions have one up on you. This was the mentality of the Pharisees. They fasted twice a week thinking that righteousness came through this type of denial of the flesh. They too thought they were overcoming the world through these types of things.

The Bible teaches to deny the flesh and the self. Do you deny this? Your accusations are baseless and ignorant. You are confusing the righteousness of salvation (as the Pharisees lived) with righteousness of practical living.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Christians overcome through Christ's obedience and through his completed work on the cross and not by any works of our own, only faith. Can works accompany faith? Of course but our efforts, like setting up LC's in every city, do not and will not defeat the works of Satan. That is a work left to Christ alone (1 John 3:8).

By your own words you as an "overcomers" believe you will overcome the works of Satan when scripture teaches that Christ is the one that came to destroy Satan's works (1 John 3:8).

Overcoming and our works have no correlation. Overcoming is achieved only by faith in Christ's finished work.

To say that overcoming and our works have no correlation means that everyone is an overcomer. So why would Christ talk about "to him who overcomes". If everyone is an overcomer there is no incentive and so Revelation is pointless. You are confusing salvation with how we live the Christian life and Christ does not discourage anyone from overcoming "as He also overcame":

Rev 3:21
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

It is well documented in Lee's teaching that we overcome only by Christ not ourselves. Yet, there are certain things we must do, such as pray, read the Word, fellowship, deny the self etc. You seem to be advocating a faith that is without any works at all which is not real faith (James 2:18). Only Satan would discourage Christians from even trying to overcome because of some twisted understanding of faith and works. You sound a lot like an ultra-Calvinist who thinks God's sovereignty will take care of everything and "Christ did so I don't have to".

Originally Posted by Jo S

The issue is that Lee's solution to "overcoming" is denying or coming out of denominations and setting up LC's in every city across the globe. This is a concerted works based system meant to bringing about Christ's return and is dominionist in nature. This teaching can also be found in the Pentecostal Latter Rain movement.

The LC's extra-biblical revelation goes that "one church one city" will be the model for Christians before the return of Christ. This reality being a sort of preparation of the "bride". This is where the doctrine of the "bride of Christ" being the church then comes into play. This is all rooted in charismania.

Isn't that what you are doing?

So what is the church for then? The church shouldn't do anything to prepare for Christ's return?

Where does the Bible say that Christ intended to return to a "messy house" after leaving it in good order as one church per city?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is nonsense because the local churches achieve this by "as the Lord leads".

And on what authority do you say it is heretical other than your own?

On what authority did Lee claim one church one city is scripture? And by what standard would you judge what my authority or his authority is either way?

The Bible teaches to deny the flesh and the self. Do you deny this? Your accusations are baseless and ignorant.

Scripture teaches there are two approaches to denying the flesh. One is obedience that comes by faith and the other is works through self-righteousness. You fail to mention both sides. How is it then that I am the ignorant one?

To say that overcoming and our works have no correlation means that everyone is an overcomer. You are confusing salvation with how we live the Christian life and Christ does not discourage anyone from overcoming "as He also overcame":

Overcoming comes through faith alone. Not everyone has faith in Jesus Christ so how then do come to this conclusion?

Rev 3:21
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

The question is how did Jesus overcome? By works of his own or by faith unto death on a cross?

It is well documented in Lee's teaching that we overcome only by Christ not ourselves. Yet, there are certain things we must do, You seem to be advocating a faith that is without any works at all which is not real faith (James 2:18). Only Satan would discourage Christians from even trying to overcome because of some twisted understanding of faith and works.

This is a contradiction in thought. If we overcome only by Christ, why must we do anything of our own to overcome? "Must" implies a means to an end, the end being personal victory (overcoming). By this you then confirm that you adopt a systematic approach to overcoming through works "such as pray, read the Word, fellowship, deny the self etc."

Prayer and fellowship should be the outflow and result of faith in Christ in knowing that he himself already overcame the world.

Works do not result in overcoming

Overcoming is the result of faith and a genuine faith produces works.

So what is the church for then? The church shouldn't do anything to prepare for Christ's return?

Where does the Bible say that Christ intended to return to a "messy house" after leaving it in good order as one church per city?

In Luke 18:8, Christ questions whether he will even find faith on the earth when he returns. Doesn't sound like things will be so tidy to me.

So what exactly do you think Christians need to do to prepare for Christ's return?

Where exactly in scripture does it say we need to make any preparations to his own body before he returns?

[Evangelical]

I know the difference between faith and works. You are preaching to the converted, not a Catholic. Both Nee and Lee taught that it is a mistake to think that salvation comes to us freely while overcoming comes as a result of our own effort.

See Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 2) Vol. 24: The Overcoming Life by Watchman Nee

I can provide other ministry material references if you like.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is nonsense and unfounded allegations. Please educate yourself about Lee's teachings first,

What's nonsense is thinking that we need to educate ourselves with Lee's teachings at all. There's no reason whatsoever to do that. There's many better teachers available to us.

Why learn from somebody that has no degrees in anything? and who puts the Bible on a torture rack, to make it say what he wants it say? and who was deluded with megalomania, by claiming to be the one and only apostle on the earth, the oracle of God, and the authority of God one the earth?

That makes it obvious that, it would be wise to avoid Lee's teachings.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

What's nonsense is thinking that we need to educate ourselves with Lee's teachings at all. There's no reason whatsoever to do that. There's many better teachers available to us.

I wrote "Educate yourself about". You are talking about "Educate yourself with".

If someone is going to be make claims about Lee's teachings, they should first educate themselves about what he taught before posting unfounded allegations. To not do that would be called ignorance.

If you want to talk about "Why learn from somebody that has no degrees in anything? ", then perhaps ask Jo S that question, as they made it quite clear that Jesus who had no degrees, teaches them everything, and have no need for Lee, CARM, or Gill or other bible scholars, or even this forum.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I wrote "Educate yourself about". You are talking about "Educate yourself with".

If someone is going to be make claims about Lee's teachings, they should first educate themselves about what he taught before posting unfounded allegations. To not do that would be called ignorance.

If you want to talk about "Why learn from somebody that has no degrees in anything? ", then perhaps ask Jo S that question, as they made it quite clear that Jesus who had no degrees, teaches them everything, and have no need for Lee, CARM, or Gill or other bible scholars, or even this forum.

So now you're comparing Lee to Jesus. Okay. Why not chant Lord Changshou then, instead of Lord Jesus?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

So now you're comparing Lee to Jesus. Okay. Why not chant Lord Changshou then, instead of Lord Jesus?

Where did I compare Lee to Jesus? This person started a thread about Lees teachings and wont even consider references to Lees teachings from anyone except themselves. It seems they are absorbed in their own gnosis and internal realities.

[Jo S]

I welcome your input, Awareness and I'm always up for a challenge, Evangelical.

I wonder if there's anyone else on the forum that would like to share their thoughts on the topic of dominion theology found within the LC's one city one church teaching.

Do you believe it applies or not? Or if you don't have an opinion either way, have you heard this comparison being made before?

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I welcome your input, Awareness and I'm always up for a challenge, Evangelical.

I wonder if there's anyone else on the forum that would like to share their thoughts on the topic of dominion theology found within the LC's one city one church teaching.

Do you believe it applies or not? Or if you don't have an opinion either way, have you heard this comparison being made before?

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Bro Jo S, I think we need to define dominion theology. Example, is dominion theology the Rushdoony type, and Theonomy type?

Like I stated, I'm not familiar with Latter Rain. What type of dominion theology do they embrace?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro Jo S, I think we need to define dominion theology. Example, is dominion theology the Rushdoony type, and Theonomy type?

Like I stated, I'm not familiar with Latter Rain. What type of dominion theology do they embrace?

I always find myself having a hard time articulating my thoughts on this topic because it's just so easy to get lost in all the terminology, isn't it? I understand the more mainstream view of dominion theology is Christian nationalism but that's not what I'm talking about here. The type of dominionism I'm referring to is along the lines of church restoration and apostolic reformation. Here is the basis for the type of theology I'm talking about;

-Satan usurped dominion over the earth from Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

-The body of believers (the overcomers/Joel's army/warrior bride of Christ ect), are the tool God will use to take back dominion and crush the serpent.

-Until the church is restored or prepared in a certain fashion, Christ will not return.

These three unscriptural beliefs are essentially the foundation of all dominion theology with the last one having the potential of focus, rather on just church reform, shifted to the political and social realms as well.

I believe all these types of dominionism are occurring simultaneously throughout a good portion of Christianity in one form or another (denomination or not) with the LC focused more on the restoration of the church to it's own exclusive extra biblical revelation of one church one city pattern of organization.

The belief that the members of the LC make up the only true church and all the rest of Christianity is apostate "Babylon" means that by having an LC in every city is having the ambition of bringing all Christians throughout the entire earth under the umbrella of the Local Churches by geographical city wide congregations. Essentially desiring to "dominate" Christendom and define Christianity by their ideology through their MOTA'S unique interpretation of scripture. They're not doing a great job at this because the LC is hardly known within Christianity but this is the driving force of it's organization from my understanding.

I also personally know that members of the LC branch which was quarantined view their leader as an apostle with unique revelation and rely solely on his guidance. This was from their own words. I assume the same was with Witness Lee. This is the mindset that comes straight out of movements like the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) and Kingdom Now, Latter Rain ect which is the type of dominionism I'm referring to.

Hope that makes it a bit more clear. Let me know your thoughts.