Paul, An Apostle of Christ movie take away

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

If this line of reasoning was correct, Christ would have never left us in the first place.

Did Christ really leave? Ever heard of the Holy Spirit? "I will not leave you orphans" (John 14:18).

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the same savior that sent out his disciples into the villages two by two (Mark 6:7)

And all it takes is two or three to gather in his name and he will be with them (Matthew 18:20)

Got it. He sent them out by denominational preference .

Originally Posted by Jo S

You're marraige analogy would be valid if not for the fact that Christ's marriage supper takes place only when he returns and not before.

There is no where in the Bible which even hints at a plan or strategy of dividing the church or believers into different denominations, between the time of Christ and His return.

Instead, there are numerous verses which state that division is bad - as I posted before.

I cannot see that the Lord Jesus who desired this:

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

would ever desire this:

I believe the Lord has more use for his body in having true believers spread out amongst the denominations and non-denominational churches

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Got it. He sent them out by denominational preference?

Naw ... they were quarantined for playing stringed instruments.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Naw ... they were quarantined for playing stringed instruments.

It is of note that Christ did not choose any musicians to be his disciples.

[aron]

A house divided was in reference to casting out demons. If you cast out Christian's who are not subservient to a publishing house in Anaheim California (note that RK & BP tolerate no deviance from the party line) then you are divided. If you say, "Everybody but us is divided" then you have made yourself the most divided.

A house with many rooms has separate quarters but they are connected. They are not hermetically sealed.

"Oh no" says the one who wants to be hermetically sealed. "Now you are talking ecumenism". And with such words they build walls and hide.

[aron]

"Let us go with him, outside the camp" - the camp is an artificial construction to keep out the dark. Outside the camp, a pure light shines which overcomes the dark. The whole world will be illuminated by its glory. (Isa 60:19; Rev 21:23)

The LC is a camp just like the SDA, JW and LDS. Maybe a little better but not much. It is a self- made prison. "If every one was just like me, there could be peace."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

A house divided was in reference to casting out demons. If you cast out Christian's who are not subservient to a publishing house in Anaheim California (note that RK & BP tolerate no deviance from the party line) then you are divided. If you say, "Everybody but us is divided" then you have made yourself the most divided.

A house with many rooms has separate quarters but they are connected. They are not hermetically sealed.

"Oh no" says the one who wants to be hermetically sealed. "Now you are talking ecumenism". And with such words they build walls and hide.

Christianity is divided and has been since the Reformation, and before that, the East-West schism. Let's not pretend it isn't. Let's not forget that fact, and as Protestants, not forget that division is the reason we're not all still saying our Hail Mary's today. So because of these facts don't think you can take some sort of high moral ground about us being the "most divided" compared to the thousands of denominations in existence today because of the division that Luther and others caused. You can't re-write history, and pretend that thousands of denominations existing today are somehow closer to unity than the single greatest division that Luther caused, or, claim that those who leave or wish to leave that system of thousands of denominations are somehow "more divided" than those who don't.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You can't re-write history or, claim that those who leave or wish to leave that system of thousands of denominations are somehow "more divided" than those who don't.

If the Protestants are a division then why do you sing their songs? You are trying to have it both ways.

The LC treads on the legitimacy of the Protestants in order to gain converts, then rejects the Protestants as an illigitimate division. Only naive rubes will fall for this trick; such was I, once.

"Everyone but us is a division" is just building your own personal wall. Who is trying to re-write history, here? And when you talk of history, you'd do well to remember the rejection of the Jews, and Chalcedon. The problem is much deeper than you realise. Unless you grasp the problem you can't see the solution.

The gospel is simple and profound. God raised Jesus on the third day. Either you believe or you don't. There is no reason to build walls.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

If the Protestants are a division then why do you sing their songs? You are trying to have it both ways.

Because the songs are right or biblical, not because the songs are Protestant.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

..... then rejects the Protestants as an illigitimate division.

Aron,

I think you mean a legitimate division. We believe Protestantism is a legitimate and bonafide division therefore we reject it. Or we consider denominating the Body of Christ illegitimate so we reject it. Either of those would be true.

Drake

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Christianity is divided and has been since the Reformation, and before that, the East-West schism. Let's not pretend it isn't. Let's not forget that fact, and as Protestants, not forget that division is the reason we're not all still saying our Hail Mary's today. So because of these facts don't think you can take some sort of high moral ground about us being the "most divided" compared to the thousands of denominations in existence today because of the division that Luther and others caused. You can't re-write history, and pretend that thousands of denominations existing today are somehow closer to unity than the single greatest division that Luther caused, or, claim that those who leave or wish to leave that system of thousands of denominations are somehow "more divided" than those who don't.

And you think yours are not in division?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is of note that Christ did not choose any musicians to be his disciples.

How would you know?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How would you know?

Because Scripture states the apostles were unlearned men. Also, because the bible don't say so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because Scripture states the apostles were unlearned men. Also, because the bible don't say so.

No it does not.

Just another one of your gross extrapolations.

Paul was one of the most "learned" men of the 1st century.

The Bible never tells us about your "ground" of oneness or the "minister of the age," but that never stopped you from believing it.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No it does not.

Just another one of your gross extrapolations.

Paul was one of the most "learned" men of the 1st century.

The Bible never tells us about your "ground" of oneness or the "minister of the age," but that never stopped you from believing it.

I was thinking of the 12 disciples primarily. There's no mention of their musical ability.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Did Christ really leave? Ever heard of the Holy Spirit? "I will not leave you orphans" (John 14:18).

Denomination or no denomination, close or far away, those born of God are all connected through his spirit.

More important than hearing of the Holy Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

If you also include the words "in the" in bold letters, you get something much different;

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment

We are to join together "in the same mind and judgment", nowhere in scripture does it say we are all to join "in the same building within in the same city". There may be a time when this will become more of a reality but until then it's only really an ideal that works to isolate believers. Isolation is a form of division.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

those born of God are all connected through his spirit.

Agreed. As saying the relative connectedness of others is a waste of time, at best.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Denomination or no denomination, close or far away, those born of God are all connected through his spirit.

More important than hearing of the Holy Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't mean much in practice unless there is a way for those believers to meet and coordinate together in a practical way. For example, in the early church the gospel spread by the local churches sending out evangelists with their blessing and supporting the gospel ministry by receiving new disciples and caring for them. The evangelists would then report back to the local churches about the work which had been done.

The gospel did not spread by individuals writing letters to each other about how connected they are in the Spirit and never meeting and coordinating together.

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you also include the words "in the" in bold letters, you get something much different;

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment

We are to join together "in the same mind and judgment", nowhere in scripture does it say we are all to join "in the same building within in the same city". There may be a time when this will become more of a reality but until then it's only really an ideal that works to isolate believers. Isolation is a form of division.

Denominations are the result of different Christians not having the same mind and judgement. For example, baptists have the opinion that baptism by full immersion is necessary. That's why they are baptists and not presbyterians.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Denominations are the result of different Christians not having the same mind and judgement. For example, baptists have the opinion that baptism by full immersion is necessary. That's why they are baptists and not presbyterians.

And you believe all Christians must read only Lee's books.

Tell me who is more divisive? Tell me whose "mind and judgment" needs some improvement?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And you believe all Christians must read only Lee's books.

Tell me who is more divisive? Tell me whose "mind and judgment" needs some improvement?

It's a simple fact that 1000 Christians in one church reading different Bible versions, and different devotionals and books at home, will not all have the same mind and judgement. The breadth of their opinion might resemble the wide variety of pickings available from local Christian bookstores, anything from Catholic to more New Age and everything in between.

For example, on the topic of is Lucifer the name of Satan.. those who read the American Standard Version which omits the name Lucifer, will probably disagree with those who read other versions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's a simple fact that 1000 Christians in one church reading different Bible versions, and different devotionals and books at home, will not all have the same mind and judgement. The breadth of their opinion might resemble the wide variety of pickings available from local Christian bookstores, anything from Catholic to more New Age and everything in between.

For example, on the topic of is Lucifer the name of Satan.. those who read the American Standard Version which omits the name Lucifer, will probably disagree with those who read other versions.

It is not a "simple fact!"

Our oneness is of the Spirit. It is not one ministry, one book, or one bible version that will make us all "one." LSM has proven that repeatedly -- we had all that, and they still found a way to cut off the Midwest LC's and Brazil. In the last go round, they cut off half SoCal, Europe, and Africa.

Do you really think that if all Christians used the same name for Satan, we would then all be one?

Perhaps you might want to reconsider the oneness of the Spirit based on the scripture. Pick any version you like.

[Jo S]

Just curious, if you guys were to liken the LC to a church in Revelation which one would it be?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is not a "simple fact!"

Our oneness is of the Spirit. It is not one ministry, one book, or one bible version that will make us all "one." LSM has proven that repeatedly -- we had all that, and they still found a way to cut off the Midwest LC's and Brazil. In the last go round, they cut off half SoCal, Europe, and Africa.

Do you really think that if all Christians used the same name for Satan, we would then all be one?

Perhaps you might want to reconsider the oneness of the Spirit based on the scripture. Pick any version you like.

You speak of oneness of the Spirit like an airy fairy concept. No practical examples to support it.

What does oneness of the Spirit look like according to your concept?

For a city of 100,000 people for example, it must look like churches of two or three (the base number of a church, according to many), or up to 33000 different denominations. What a wonderful picture and testimony of oneness.