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| The Local Church in the 21st Century Observations and Discussions regarding the Local Church Movement in the Here and Now |
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04-18-2018, 06:08 PM
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#1 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 250
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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Anyways, I never said that local church members running the group was wrong- I have no issue with that. To my knowledge- no one does. We were talking about their two names and I didn't even say that was unbiblical- just a bad practice! There are a lot of things in life that you aren't going to be able to straightforwardly pin point to Scripture for a clear answer. I don't think the Bible addresses either issue of who should run campus ministry groups and how they should be named but my point is, you're bringing up an issue that isn't being debated and then implying that my position on the new subject you've brought up is unbiblical. Stick to the issues please and make points that apply to the argument. You may be doing this intentionally in an effort to frustrate me or maybe you're just not great at debating...not sure. I'm happy to keep this up though. |
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04-18-2018, 06:34 PM
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#2 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,965
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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You may see the local church as any member from any denomination participating. I disagree. If a presbyterian participates, it is the presbyterian church, not the local church, participating. If a student asks that person "which church should I go to", that presbyterian may say "you can come to mine if you like". So a student would be "recruited" to presbyterianism. Very unlikely that the presbyterian volunteer would suggest a student go to a Catholic church I think. Thus proving they are not about "building up the Body" but evangelicalism. Clearly, the group which represents evangelicalism is only a part of the body (what about pentecostals and Catholics etc?). The only group which represents the local church as a whole is Christians on campus. For this reason it is valid for them to be named as simply Christians. The moment the name "evangelical" or "Witness Lee" is added to the name, it becomes a denominational group. In the minds of the local church members, there is no such thing as "the church of Witness Lee", or "the Local Church" (in capital letters), and "Living Stream Ministry" is the ministry and not the church. So by not naming the group as anything other than "Christians on campus" they are being true to their beliefs and therefore the claims of deception are unfounded. I do not believe that the local church members believe themselves to be part of a denomination called "the church of Witness Lee". For this reason you cannot claim deception. What is more like deception, is individuals who attend a certain denomination of their choice every Sunday, pretending to be "just Christians" or "just evangelical Christians" on campus. The leader may be presbyterian, the lead missionary may be a baptist, and maybe another is a pentecostal. They do not reveal their true denominational affiliation to the students, knowing well, that they are devoted to a denomination in their heart and on a Sunday. This is entirely different to the local churches, who do not believe they are a denomination of any kind. This confusion is evident when students are converted to "Christianity", only to be faced with the tough decision of "which church should I attend this Sunday", then, they realize that Christianity is really divided into many different groups. Also, it may vary from campus to campus, but I think there are more volunteers from the local churches involved than full timers. It costs a lot of money to support full timers and it is better to get volunteers (including student volunteers) to devote their weekends of after work hours than full timers. |
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04-18-2018, 11:56 PM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 250
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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Every group has to have a name, legally, to own property and employ people. This thread is titled "deceptions on campus" and one of the deceptions the LC uses is employing people that sometimes call themselves a different name (CoC) when on college campuses other than the name of the group they're a part of and that employs them (the LC). Every denomination or non-denominational group has to have a name. The difference in what groups are denominations or not doesn't apply because they all have names and the issue we're discussing is how the LC uses a different name when they're on the college campuses. There is a name for the group that owns the CoC house and employs the CoC employees, that are also full-timers for the local church, and the name isn't "Christians on campus!" its "The Local Church in <blank>." Aside from your point about a Presbyterian not inviting someone to a Catholic Church not making sense due to the issue of Catholics not teaching a "saved by grace and grace alone" doctrine essential to the Christian faith (they believe there are works required as well for most), your argument truly doesn't make any sense with better examples! Even if you used a different example like "a Presbyterian wouldn't invite someone to a Baptist church," while probably true- that absolutely doesn't mean they're about "building up evangelism" instead of building up the body of Christ! You're saying it proves this, but how? Yes, they probably want to gain a member for their church, which every group does, but they're still essentially helping to increase the body of Christ. Evangelism isn't something that is "built up" by inviting someone to your church at all! That's just pure and simple inviting someone to church! I don't see how someone inviting another to their Christian meeting, denomination or not, proves they're not concerned with building up the body of Christ, but instead concerned with building up evangelicalism. You keep saying these actions prove this, but again-how? It's natural to invite someone to the place you know and are familiar with. Your judgement of that group being a "denomination" is a result of your "us vs. them" indoctrination and having an unbalanced viewpoint of the one church/one city doctrine being taken to an extreme. In practices, the local church mirrors that of a sectarian group- which is more divisive and elitist than most denominations! Yet, you think by insisting that you don't have a name, even though in practice you're just the same as other denominations (if not worse), that makes some kind of difference! A group is defined by its practices, not it's name! The local church is practicing all the things denominations do but their ridiculous claim to "not have a name" somehow proves to them that they're different. It reminds me of the book, "The Emperor's New Clothes!" You keep saying that people from denominations are just promoting evangelism by inviting people to their church instead focusing on building up the body of Christ. That also doesn't make sense bc Evangelism is a movement accepted by most Protestant groups, possibly all, so I don't see how inviting someone to a church you prefer is "building up evangelism!" Ha! If anything, sending someone to a different Protestant church would be more along the lines of "promoting evangelism!" This isn't really the issue but your understanding of what evangelism is and how it relates to the Body is seriously flawed. My last response covered how your idea that evangelism "represents" just a portion of the body of Christ is pretty skewed. Not judging you, I'm not an expert but you really don't know what you're talking about and its obvious. Evangelicals don't "represent" anybody more than the rest, and are absolutely interested in increasing the whole body of Christ, which can include members of the Catholic Church that are saved on their own accord, despite what the Catholic Church teaches. Do you understand the difference in Protestantism and the Catholisism? The Catholic church does not teach that you are saved by being "born again" in the way we understand it. They believe that God's grace alone is not sufficient for salvation but requires works and there's a whole complicated process that honestly, I don't know a whole lot about. Either way- it's a legitimate argument that the Catholic Church, as a whole, has some serious differences in the fundamentals of the faith and while there are definitely saved believers in the church- you won't see an Evangelical speaking in that congregation. More likely bc it would never be allowed! So, I don't know why you're trying to figure out what groups Evangelicals represent and which ones they don't in the body of Christ. I don't understand your point to that argument but I'm guessing it's some justification for the relationship between Evangelicals and denominations and the LC and CoC. This got way off topic but there was a lot to address! For example... This statement you've made has issues.... "The only group which represents the local church as a whole is Christians on campus. For this reason it is valid for them to be named as simply Christians. The moment the name "evangelical" or "Witness Lee" is added to the name, it becomes a denominational group." Why do you think the only group that represents the local church is Christians on campus? The group that represents the local church is called, "The church is <blank> locality." That's what's on their signs, their mail, their tax forms, property records, and the paychecks for their employees. It's crazy to me that you can't recognize that they have a name. They LEGALLY HAVE TO HAVE A NAME to exist, doing the things they're doing. I understand the reasons that you don't want to have a name (you feel like it makes you a denomination even though no one cares about that except ppl in the LC) but you can't have an organization that owns property, employs people, and takes peoples money without paying taxes, WITHOUT A NAME!!! Sorry, this is just a humorous issue for me bc it's not the first time I've discussed this and the response is always the same- complete insistence that they have no name. Except on their sign of course. Oh, and with the IRS, and with their realtors and banks. They can have a name then, but bc having a name allegedly makes you a denomination- they become very clear after "taking care of business matters" that they do NOT have a name!!  Now, I'm not saying they have to be called, "the Church of WL" or the "LSM church," but in a practical way, LSM essentially controls all the churches with monetary requirements and other expectations so if you HAD to pick a name, it seems "Living Stream Ministry Church" would be the most accurate-especially due to the churches requirement to buy and sell LSM material exclusively. But, I know that would upset you and my friends and family to be called that so fine- don't call yourself that. But don't deny the name each local church LEGALLY has. You're so caught up in lofty doctrine and legalism about names you can't acknowledge that each locality already has a name recognized by the government! I would say that's a pretty good argument for having a name when your government recognizes you as "said name". The idea of not having a name is so ridiculous and doesn't work in the real world. I think God will give some grace on this and you won't be condemned for having a name and becoming *gasp* a DENOMINATION. LC people are so indoctrinated that this is so evil- it's just a knee jerk response when someone says that word. Even being considered as "non-denominational" is below them. Get over it peeps, they're just words. No one cares what your name is but in the real world, groups have names!! It reminds me of when the artist Prince changed his name to a symbol with no name. So, people had to call him, "the artist formally known as Prince." That essentially become his new name, in practice, bc there was no option to address him with his name being a symbol other than "the artist formerly known as Prince!" This is how I view the LC- switching between a name when required to legally and then a symbol that is ridiculous and others having to name them to address the normal issues every Christian group experiences. You have no right to be offended by whatever name people call you when you've insisted that you have no name! Luckily, that can all be avoided bc lo and behold, according to our government- they have a name (sshhh! just like denominations do!) Frankly, by not naming themselves- the legality that they had to pick a name probably saved them! I'm sure they would have been labeled as the "WL church" (even more than they are now!) or something along those lines! Also, in regards to this comment, "I do not believe that the local church members believe themselves to be part of a denomination called "the church of Witness Lee". For this reason you cannot claim deception." You can claim deception bc according to the US government, they have a name. They should use that name instead of CoC. Also, I never said they believe themselves to be part of a denomination called, "The church of Witness Lee." You can claim they're using deception by calling themselves CoC when they already have a name that's recognized by the government, which unfortunately has a bad reputation (hence the deception). Do you really think the local church would call themselves CoC if they weren't such a controversial group? You'll probably say yes, you follow blindly. This comment you made still manages to surprise me even though I've heard this nonsense before.... You said... "What is more like deception, is individuals who attend a certain denomination of their choice every Sunday, pretending to be "just Christians" or "just evangelical Christians" on campus. The leader may be presbyterian, the lead missionary may be a baptist, and maybe another is a pentecostal. They do not reveal their true denominational affiliation to the students, knowing well, that they are devoted to a denomination in their heart and on a Sunday. This is entirely different to the local churches, who do not believe they are a denomination of any kind. This confusion is evident when students are converted to "Christianity", only to be faced with the tough decision of "which church should I attend this Sunday", then, they realize that Christianity is really divided into many different groups." I didn't realize that Christians were embarrassed of the denomination they're affiliated with! Do you realize this isn't true?? Only people in the LC can say this bc you've been so indoctrinated against denominations. They are NOT embarrassed by their denomination NOR do they hide their denominational affiliation to students. It's ironic, bc this is something cults do, but not denominations! Earlier today, I found a link to all the Christian clubs on the campus I live by. More than half listed their associated Christian group on the list. For many of the other ones, I just had to click on the link to their webpage to find out their Christian groups affiliation. I truly feel bad that you are so misguided by the local church! NO ONE except the local church views denomination affiliation as something to "hide" or be embarrassed about. I really hope you can begin to see this. I also feel you're projecting your ideas about denominations on how someone "feels devoted to that denomination in their heart." That's completely ridiculous. I'm not saying some old-schoolers aren't like that but the trend now with Christian congregations is absolutely NON-DENOMINATIONAL and denominations left and right are dropping those affiliations and standing on a unified simple doctrine for accepting other believers! Some are doing now what the local church claims to do (yet doesn't) and "stand on the ground of oneness," perhaps in different words but essentially doing the same thing by being open to accepting all believers and taking communion with them. Christians are realizing more and more that denominations (although not evil) aren't helping bring Christians together. Pretty soon the local church is going to see a true expression of the Body of Christ coming together- from the former denominations!!I truly believe this and I also believe the Lord's Recovery will go even more off course with what the Bible teaches. They've been on a scary path and it's not getting better! With your last point, yes- there are more members of the LC that are college age than full-timers, running CoC- although not by much! Why pay a full-timer to do it when a college age person will do it for free, right? |
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04-19-2018, 03:23 AM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,965
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
Strictly speaking the name "the local church in.." is for the Sunday meeting where the Lord's table is held. This is, strictly speaking, the assembly of the local church. Clearly, this is something which Christians on campus is not, so I think that using a different name such as Christians on campus is entirely appropriate. If you can show, that the Christians on Campus meetings are equivalent to the Lord's Table meeting on a Sunday then perhaps you have a point. Can you?
So, if the names do not mean anything, then why they don't get rid of them? Ask any denominational pastor that, and their answer will reveal the truth! And, I never did understand why there are different evangelical groups on the one campus, all trying to achieve the same ends, with very similar gospels. The situation is that we have different evangelical organizations all competing for the same students. It's very easy to prove that Evangelicalism is indeed something that is "built up" - there was a time when Evangelicalism did not exist. It grew over time to the number of people it includes today. Clearly then, it was "built up", it must have been. Evangelical movements obviously build up themselves and the particular denominations they represent. Evangelicals also send missionaries to preach their gospel, and in many cases, re-evangelize countries for which there are already well established Catholic or Orthodox churches. Pentecostals will then do the same, sending their missionaries to preach their pentecostal gospel, in many cases, re-evangelizing areas where there are already well established evangelical/Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox churches. So, there is a build up of those particular denominations wherever they grow. I am puzzled by your statement (in bold) that evangelicals don't represent anybody more than the rest. If you look at this website: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...ulation_growth There is a table "Religious Self-Identification of the U.S. Adult Population: 1990, 2001, 2008" 34% of American adults considered themselves "Born Again or Evangelical Christians" in 2008. Therefore, Evangelical groups and associations represent 34% of Americans, or whatever the figure is today, I don't know. I mean, these groups don't exist for the Catholic church do they? (they have their own statistics, a much larger group than the Evangelicals). I understand the difference between Protestants and Catholics and the reasoning for the differences. What I don't understand is why Catholics are considered "part of the Body of Christ" sometimes, and other times not. Unless evangelical groups are building up the Catholic churches, I cannot see how they can claim to be building up the Body. Their reluctance to build up the attendance at Catholic churches proves they are about building up evangelicalism rather than the entire Body of Christ. This is what Watchman Nee says: "A church can only be named after its locality. It cannot have any other name." ~ The Normal Christian Faith, by Watchman Nee. So, either you have misunderstood what they are saying when they say "we have no name", or they have misunderstood what it means and did not explain it properly. "We don't have a name" is really a shortening of "we don't have a special name other than the name of the locality". As I mentioned before, the local church assembly and the on campus meeting are different. So, there is good reason for using different names. As an example, if I went shopping with 10 brothers and sisters, I would not tell the cashier "we are the church in...". We might however, say, "we are Christians". I do not think a denominational church would speak like this either. If 10 baptists went shopping they would not tell the cashier "we are the baptist church in...", but they might say "we are Christians". I have the heard the same story for what, the past 20 years, about denominations "getting together". I just don't see much happening. I believe the increase in non-denoms is in general, due to dissatisfaction with mainstream denominations, rather than a genuine attempt at unity. I have met with some non-denom Christians before, and their reason for being non-denom is typically "this church is this, and this church is that", rather than "we saw the vision of the oneness of the Body and want to be one with all the believers". These sorts of statements: "More than half listed their associated Christian group on the list. For many of the other ones, I just had to click on the link to their webpage to find out their Christian groups affiliation." prove otherwise to what you claim about the situation of denominationalism. Obviously, the more "affiliations" there are, the more division there must be. If a group was affiliated with 100,000 different groups, I would think, wow, that's a lot of different groups - for what? |
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04-19-2018, 03:49 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 61
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
I feel like a lot of these arguments are missing the point.
When a student comes into contact with a Christian club at there college, whether or not they are Christian they probably want an idea what the club is about. Now, there is one club that at my campus that clearly links itself to one particular church service. So, when a student encounters this group thinks 'Oh, it's for members of that church group and if they are encouraging me to come along it is because they want me to go to their service" Now, if a student is looking for a Sunday service, because they've just moved to that there or whatever, they might enquire to find more about. If they are not interested they move along. If they come into contact with a para-church group, usually they can work out pretty quickly that it is a para-church group and decide if they want to go or not, according to their beliefs and what they are looking for. Then you get to Christians on Campus. Cool, a Christian group that welcomes all Christians. If you are a naive Christian that sounds great. What are they doing on campus? Oh, they just come together to study the bible. A lot of Christians new to university would love to study the bible with others. Maybe, one is not a Christian but curious what the bible has to say, a bible study sounds perfect for that. However, Christians on Campus's purpose is not just to have bible studies on campus to help enlighten Christian and non-Christian's alike. The purpose is to get them to come to the Local Church in [City] Sunday meetings, to get them to be active recruiters while at college and when they finish college to go to the FTT. That's the deception. |
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04-19-2018, 06:12 AM
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#6 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 250
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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04-19-2018, 10:49 PM
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#7 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 61
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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I have lost my patience with him, and will only address comments that actually concern my points. |
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04-19-2018, 06:00 AM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 250
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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I could sit here and continue to prove each of your points as incorrect but I’m hoping someone else takes the wheel. First of all, we can’t have a discussion if we can’t agree on the facts- which we clearly can’t do. There are some ppl you just shouldn’t argue with- you’re proving to be one of them. Have a great day. |
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04-19-2018, 06:36 AM
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#9 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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Yes, folks, the height of hypocrisy and arrogance -- the LSM church that claims to have no name, and condemns all others for their names, went to court with a lawsuit to legally acquire the rights to their officially sanctioned name "the church in Columbus." So now LSMers like Evangelical can now condemn the church there for being the "Columbus Christian Assembly." As Someone once said, "Woe to you hypocrites, blind guides."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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04-19-2018, 11:30 PM
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#10 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 250
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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04-19-2018, 12:06 PM
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 250
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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In response to your first paragraph, you're ignoring the fact that the government recognizes the LC as having a name and that the LC employs the people for CoC and owns the building CoC uses. In addition to ignoring that, you're now stating that the LC does have a name, but strictly speaking- it's only for Sunday table meetings. So they do have a name, but only on Sundays- according to you? Also, how is comparing the meetings of CoC (that are run by LC employees) and the Lord's table meeting in the LC proving that their different names are justified? Why do you consider the style of their meetings being equivalent to each other as a factor in this discussion? Do you really think that just because the meetings have a different flavor that it justifies them being called a different name when they're on a campus? With that reasoning, what should we call the group (although the same people) that meets on Wednesday nights for the prayer meeting? According to your logic, it could be acceptable to call them a different name (even though they're the same group of people) because the prayer meeting is run differently than the Lord's Table and their functions are different. Do you understand how your logic isn't applicable to justify them calling themselves CoC now? Obviously, the LC and CoC have two different initiatives but they're all on the "same team" and working together. Just like a business has a sales team and customer service team- but is still one company. It's exactly like the LC having CoC for recruiting, so why are they using a different name with CoC- if not to be deceitful? Given the general populations knowledge about deceitful recruiting practices- you'd think the LC would want to avoid this well known deceitful practice of giving themselves another name when recruiting on campus! But, it seems to be a small price they're willing to pay and will use the tactic to avoid the loss of potential recruits! You can't deny, one exists to recruit for the other and you're right that the CoC meetings will not be the same as the Lord's table meeting but that is not "proof" as you're stating, that they are justified in being called different things! Also, you're just willfully ignoring the fact the the government does recognize the local church as having a name. Not the mention, the local church wouldn't be able to employ people or own property- without a name. You can insist all day long that there is no name, yet- from a legal standpoint, there is a name. You can't have it both ways and just claim to be "Christians who meet together on the (in theory only) ground of one-ness" with no name, but then also employ people and own property. To do those things, you must have a name. You can't argue that they legally have one but I guess you could argue that it's only due to "man's law" that they have a legal identity and then turn around and refuse to acknowledge that lowly characteristic of having a name as a mere "legal technicality." Feel free to do so, as do many other LC-goers! But you have a name, therefore- call yourself that name when out in the world doing things in an organized effort. I hesitated even responding bc I knew this would be so repetitive and it's proving to be the case! I'm taking the time to respond to all your points but you've ignored the ones you can't defend and then thrown out more points that are, as the others, not proving your argument like you think they are! This topic you've brought up now about how LC and CoC meetings being different and how that somehow justifies the different names is such a bad example for your argument that I almost feel bad pointing out such flawed logic. Ok, 2nd paragraph. You said, "if names don't mean anything, why don't they drop them?" Ok, just because a congregation is required to have a name in order to operate in the way that most congregations do, that doesn't mean that they're a divisive denomination! A name could be a name for a denomination or a non-denominational group. How could they drop their name(denominational or not), as you're suggesting, and employ people and own property? I'm not sure what answer you believe the hypothetical pastors would give in your scenario but I'm going to take a wild guess and say their response would be something that someone in the local church told you it would be- ha! There are so many of those silly notions in the LC that make you think about the world in an alternate reality! Also, in regards to the evangelical campus ministries "competing with each other," that's also likely your perception due to being in the local church. They'll tell you that kind of stuff but in reality, unless individual evangelical leaders on campus have some sort of personal vendetta to "steal" other believers from other groups and be the exception to the rule-you're completely off base to say they're competing for students. There are needs that can be met, in different ways, and by different groups. A healthy Christian campus ministry will work with other groups that also preach the gospel but may serve in a different way. You really do have an LC indoctrinated view of how things work outside the LC- I'm not trying to be condescending. It's just very obvious and it makes me sad. Your third paragraph...I'm not sure why we're discussing this- I agree with you that different Christian groups tend to grow the group they're associated with. That seemed to turn into an argument on the definitions of different movements and actually- I'm glad bc it made me read up on the topic and now I can see why you're separating Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism. I thought that Pentecostalism was just a movement under the umbrellas of the Evangelicalism movement. While Pentecostalism TECHNICALLY does have its roots in Evangelicalism, there are some differences. Again, I don't see how this topic applies to the conversation at hand (CoC) since it's common knowledge that Christian groups are trying to gain members for their associated congregations but I do think it's interesting that you claim the local church doesn't do that! Anyways, I'd share his article about the differences/similarities of the two movements. https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/evan...-charismatics/ 4th paragraph... I didn't say that evangelicals "don't represent anybody more than the rest." They clearly can't "represent" Catholics bc Catholics wouldn't allow it! I already explained that evangelicalism is only within the Protestant churches because the Catholic Church, by definition, doesn't allow any movement to promote it or recognize it other than itself! I can't speak for Catholicism (need to look that up) but Evangelicalism recognizes the Catholic church as having members that are born again Christians and part of the body of Christ. But obviously, due to not being "welcomed" in the Catholic Church community, they don't have much affiliation with the Catholic Church as a result. Also, it's obvious that Evangelicals don't agree with the majority of Catholic doctrine so while they recognize that there are born again Christians there, it would be unreasonable for Evangelicals to promote attendance in a place they believe also teaches unscriptural doctrine- even if it's not doctrine related to the key issues of the faith. As far as the survey you brought up, I'm sorry-I don't see how that applies. I agree that Evangelicalism might be represented as a separate group than Catholicism (as shown in the survey). Again, for the most part- that's due to the Catholic Church not welcoming the evangelical movement into their services. What point does that survey make, in your opinion, by distinguishing the two groups of born-again Christians/Evangelical and Catholic Christians? Are you trying to imply this somehow means that Evangelicalism is to blame for this? After posting the survey, you're clearly stating that because Evangelicalism doesn't actively build up each denomination equally- according to you, this proves they are wrong to claim they are building up the Body of Christ? Wow! So it has to be one or the other in your mind? The ONLY thing you have to do to become a believer and member of the Body is to be born-again. Why does the issue of how Evangelicalism possibly creating more growth in certain denominations than others even matter? For someone so concerned about the one-ness of the body of Christ, do you really care that the movement has less affect on some groups than others? Even if they do cause some groups to grow more than others, do you think that result is 100% due to Evangelicalism deciding which groups they want to grow and which ones they don't? Please! They're growing the Body! That's all that matters! Evangelicalism isn't trying to "build up" evangelicalism. It's whole existence is to serve the Lord! If one denomination grows more than another because of Evangelicalism- that's just the Lord's mercy and has less to do with their efforts given that it's a movement that includes all Protestant churches! 5th paragraph.....forgive me if I don't take Watchmen Nee's words as a substitute for Scripture. Please! Show me where it says that in the Bible. The city boundaries as being the basis and boundary for meeting with other Christians is HIGHLY debatable and you should know that very few Christians agree with this doctrine due to it stretching Biblical teachings. 6th paragraph... see my first paragraph but your example of telling a cashier "we're Christians" instead of the fact that they're Baptists is clearly not the same as one group of people being employed by a Christian congregation, then recruiting for it under a different name. Who is the "cashier" in this example? The college students? In your example, you forgot to include that the Baptist church would actually be paying the "shoppers" to tell the cashier they are "just Christians" and then develop a relationship with the cashier, with the ultimate goal of bringing them to the Baptist church. If you're going to use that analogy-let's apply it fully!  7th paragraph... well, that is your experience and perspective. Mine is different. I've seen it happen to two churches personally and have sensed the change. I looked it up and sure enough, it's happening! The article says churches are, "reinventing how evangelicals and others cooperate and shape their ministries in many contexts and across denominational borders." This seems to contradict your claim that they're ditching their denomination status "due to dissatisfaction with mainstream denominations, rather than a genuine attempt at unity." Sure, the article doesn't use LC lingo like "seeing a vision of the one-ness of the Body." It's basically the same thought process though! Also, give them a break! Change takes time! Clearly this is an awesome thing to see how congregations are moving towards more fellowship and involvement with each other! Do you not recognize that is from the Lord? You still think congregations efforts to be one in the Body of Christ is still somehow below the LC due to your insistence that the LC doesn't have a name, therefore stands on the ground of one-ness" (even thought they don't back that statement up)? Here's the article- again, I'm sorry you haven't seen it but it's happening! https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...inational.html 8th paragraph... yes, there are many affiliations or denominations. That's why it's been great to see so many dropping those denominational ties and focusing on the key issues of the faith and fellowship with the whole body of Christ. Granted, being non-denominational, as I stated before, doesn't mean you can't have a name. Denominations do divide - I agree. Names however- don't. I know you're not going to agree due to your intense LSM indoctrination but just know your opinion and the LC doctrine on this issue is discredited by the majority of Christian scholars, and believers in general. The doctrine of "having no name besides that of your locality" is questionable at best, not emphasized in the Bible, and practically impossible to execute in the real world. It could never work and the LC knows it! It's easy to "state this ideology" knowing that it would never actually happen due to them not being able to manage it and ultimately LSM would lose their control. Still, the doctrine is definitely OVER EMPHASIZED by the LC in an classic sectarian attempt to elevate themselves over other believers. By elevating an obscure doctrine to such an unhealthy level- they actually create MORE division with other Christians in that this requirement is almost at the same level as the fundamental issues of the faith! They use this elevated doctrine as the basis of their existence and judge and follow any other doctrine as a measure against it. It's called BEING OUT OF BALANCE- and unfortunately it's something many cults and sectarian groups do. They take one doctrine of minor importance, that may even be correct, but elevate it to a point that is unhealthy and base/measure everything against it. The LC isn't the first to do it and it won't be the last! |
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04-19-2018, 06:35 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,965
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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In my previous post I clearly stated that the church has a name, and even quoted Watchman Nee. But you are arguing the point that you introduced in your last post I replied to. I don't think I ever denied that the LC "has a name". It is stated, in the Nee quote I provided, that the name is the name of the city in which the church dwells. The city-name of the church is a point I have defended many times on this forum. BTW the name of the church can also be just Jesus Christ, it depends if we are looking at the local or Universal/spiritual side. Regarding the naming of the on campus activity, I think we need to understand two things: 1)the objective of the on campus ministry is to add to the church. Call it recruitment if you like, that's the whole point of on campus ministry. The on campus ministry is a means to an end, not the end itself. Just like students are not expected to study at college their whole life, they are expected to graduate and join the real world in employment. So what do you expect? The objective of any evangelical effort is to "add to the church". The on campus meetings are not "lampstands" where the Lord's Table is held each Sunday. Just like I would not call my family home "the local church in <city>", it's probably not appropriate for the on-campus group either. Yes, we are members of the local church, but it is not correct to call ourselves "the local church in...". This is more appropriate for the Sunday meeting hall where the whole church gathers (not just students). If the other groups on campus are not there to build the church and recruit students, then what are they doing there? Let's not be so naive and think that what Christians on Campus does and how it operates is so unique. The other on campus groups are not just "building the Body" and reaching any and all students, and all enjoying oneness with each other, while the "Christians on campus" are not. They each have their own reason for existence (if they didn't, the Navigators and the Campus Crusade for Christ etc would probably be joined into one organization already), they each have different motives for targeting particular kinds of students. They each are connected to local denominations (who may provide support by way of finance, resources or volunteers) who probably expect some sort of return on their investment (such as those students joining the church). It is well known that Bill Bright's ministry, for example, targeted students especially, and those with special capabilities. Here is a statement how they targeted particular types of students for their purpose: Reaching and recruiting leaders was always one of Bill’s priorities. In fact, the very first outreach Bill and Vonette carried out at UCLA focused on student leaders. Campus Crusade has followed that pattern ever since. Not because the souls of leaders are any more valuable, but because they have a larger sphere of influence and can expose even more people to the gospel as their lives change. Also, they can provide leadership within the ministry, bringing about greater excellence. https://www.cru.org/content/dam/cru/...lived_well.pdf The on campus evangelical groups are there for the students, not the homeless people. They particularly target the students which have the greatest potential (the most athletic, brightest, or strongest leadership potential). So if anyone criticize Witness Lee for seeking "Good building material" then you better also criticize the other on-campus groups for targeting "students with leadership potential". 2) the objective of the on-campus ministry is to add people into the church. Recruitment is otherwise known as evangelism. It is the response to the call of Christ to "make disciples" and build the church. Ephesians 4:12 - for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ On these two points, the local churches are consistent with their beliefs. Therefore it is unlikely this is a deceptive practice. Basically it is good evangelism (which on-campus groups / denominations which use various gimmicks and tricks to attract people might applaud). The name "Christians on campus" is not even a gimmick - the name is very neutral. Other groups may use the name "power rangers" or "excitement sports club". Even the name "the Navigators" is sort of gimmicky. Adding to the church, is unlike the para and inter-organizations which run Christian activities but typically have little to do with the local churches. As the Gotquestions article I posted highlights, the on-campus organizations and the local churches (aka denominations) are somewhat disjointed. Quote:
"you're just willfully ignoring the fact the the government does recognize the local church as having a name" "You can insist all day long that there is no name, yet- from a legal standpoint, there is a name. " When I clearly showed it does have a name. I personally am okay with repetition if it helps the argument - it's a way to emphasize something. Quote:
Again you are arguing what I am not, about becoming nameless, not my real point about changing names. You said "a congregation is required to have a name in order to operate". I am not talking about becoming nameless, but about changing their name. I agree that just because a congregation has a name does not mean they are divisive. But I am not saying that. I am saying that if they were not divisive (as you claim) they would not have a different name or would change it pretty quickly, to something non-denominational or similar to the groups they claim to be in unity with. Let's consider that if a company is taken over by another company, that company may be absorbed and take on the name of the larger company. Happens all the time. In rare cases, the companies may share the name, with a hyphen. But usually the little guy adopts the name of the big guy. They change their name! Also, suppose a woman divorces and re-marries. Suppose she does not change her name to the name of her new husband. Sure, maybe they are living together and everything, in practice they seem unified, but why wouldn't she change her name to her new husbands name if she is really really devoted to him? I think it is obvious that a church can change its name, anytime it wants to. So why don't they? I came across this article which discusses the matter of churches changing their name: https://www.christianitytoday.com/pa...l/87l4040.html Firstly, this article supports my idea that names are important. So let's not pretend they aren't - they are. I am glad you agree that names are important - even legal! (other people on this forum don't agree that names are so important). Secondly, they seem to be saying that the reason churches don't change their name is because they don't want to upset their existing congregations, or cause strife. Of course, to change the name will by costly. So basically a pastor of a Presbyterian church, for example, may desire to change their name to something denominational, but they can't, or more precisely, won't. This is why, it is easier to "come out" and start fresh, than try to change the name of all the denominations already existing. Quote:
. Seriously, the differences can be big enough for pentecostals to not join evangelical on campus groups, and vice versa. "I do think it's interesting that you claim the local church doesn't do that" (gain members for their congregations) Did I really say that? It should be obvious that: Christians on Campus does not exist for the sake of their own existence - neither should any of the other on campus groups think they can replace the local church (the ones I am most familiar with don't, to my knowledge) Christians on Campus itself is not "a church" and is not a substitute for the local church (students are encouraged to attend a Sunday meeting, with the view to full fellowship at the Lord's Table meeting) Quote:
"The ONLY thing you have to do to become a believer and member of the Body is to be born-again. " why do we have churches? Can't everyone just stay at home on Sunday and watch church on TV? Quote:
It could be argued that the inter and para organisations on campus are recruiting for the local churches. I believe they are, because after leaving college or on a Sunday, those students converted will seek to attend a local church. And if those organizations are not seeking to add to the local churches - what's the point? just to create converts who will watch church on TV every Sunday or do something else? When those students graduate - are those on campus organizations going to continue providing a spiritual home for them? This is why connectivity with the local church and local church oversight is important. Quote:
After stating how people are leaving denominations: ""Christian Americans … prefer to either identify themselves simply as Christians or attend the increasing number of nondenominational churches that have no formal allegiance to a broader religious structure.” The article then states the reasons WHY: ""The move away from historic denominations corresponds with a swelling sense of skepticism many Americans have toward institutions overall"" ""even denominational churches downplay their affiliations to avoid the negative connotations now associated with religious hierarchy and structure"" So the reason for this move away from denominations is: "scepticism towards institutions" "negative connotations now associated with religious hierarchy and structure" This supports my statement that: ""I believe the increase in non-denoms is in general, due to dissatisfaction with mainstream denominations, rather than a genuine attempt at unity. "" No where in the article does it say that the non-denominational movement is "in general due to an attempt at unity"". But I cannot rule it out, that's why I said "is in general, due to..." So, I cannot see much contradiction of my claim, rather, it supports my claim. What is also interesting is this statement by theology professor at Baylor University’s George W. Truett Theological Seminary. “Very few churches I know anything about are truly, totally, exclusively ‘nondenominational’ in the sense most people think,” he wrote in a blog post last month. “In almost every case where I am asked about a church that declares itself ‘nondenominational,’ I can find some affiliation of that church with some network of similar churches.” I have said before that nondenominational churches are not really nondenominational. This professor seems to share my point of view. Of course, more is required than just a name change to achieve unity. Quote:
"Denominations do divide - I agree. Names however- don't." Doesn't make sense because the word "denomination" means "to name". See this definition: https://www.etymonline.com/word/denomination denomination (n.) late 14c., "a naming, act of giving a name to," from Old French denominacion "nominating, naming," from Latin denominationem (nominative denominatio) "a calling by anything other than the proper name, metonymy," from denominare "to name," from de- "completely" (see de-) + nominare "to name" (see nominate). Meaning "a class" is from mid-15c. Monetary sense is 1650s; meaning "religious sect" is 1716. Logically, if denominations divide, then different names divide as well (because denomination means 'to name'). To make this logical contradiction clearer, let me rephrase your statement according to the definition of the word denomination: ""to name is to divide - I agree. Names however- don't divide." There is a meaning which is interesting: "a calling by anything other than the proper name". The Bible reveals the "proper name" of the church - the city name. |
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04-19-2018, 08:24 PM
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#13 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 243
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
De Jour, CoC claims it represents all Christians
De facto, everyone's prime bible is the recovery version, all the reading is of Witness Lee, and all the members go to one place on Sunday. If you don't, you're definitely a new one or else ostracized. Don't forget meetings deciding what to invite whom to. Ah, I think this new one is ready to come to the Anaheim center. I can think of two people who I was involved with in college that are now in or done with the FTTA as a result of being gained off the campuses |
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04-19-2018, 10:58 PM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 250
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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04-20-2018, 07:36 AM
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#15 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,632
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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There's a group called Youth With a Mission (YWAM), whose purpose is to recruit young people, send them to their "training centers", where they're trained to go recruit other young people, who will also (hopefully) become recruiters etc. I haven't been to YWAM "training centers" so I don't know if they have the equivalent of Paul Hon there, telling them not to waste their time with the poor, the sick, the weak, and go after healthy young (impressionable) specimens with good earning potential. But what little I've seen from the distance reminds me, too much, of the CoC and the FTT of the LSM. It's a pyramid scheme, with one's relative position dependent upon: 1) success recruiting/discipling; and 2) abject servility to and promotion of the Top Dog and their programme. LC members only exist to consume ministry materials and recruit others to consume ministry materials. CoC wants to look like a "non-denominational campus evangelical group" but they're not; they're the recruiting arm of a book publisher that runs its own gulag archipelago of captive assemblies. "Oh, we're just Christians from different backgrounds who love the Lord. . . " Yeah, right. Bait and switch.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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04-20-2018, 10:39 AM
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#16 | |||
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 250
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
In an effort to make this shorter, I'm just responding to new points.
You originally argued a point that CoC was justified in being called that bc the local church didn't have a "name" per say- just a description to be used for a Sunday table meeting. Later you agreed that they legally had a name. I was always told in the local church that we had no name, but the "church in BLANK locality" had to be on a sign outside the meeting hall for a "description" of what it was . If you think they have a name now- great. I assumed you were in agreement with most people in the LC that believe the "name" isn't a name like the denominations have- of course not! It's just a DESCRIPTION of who they are- not a name (heaven forbid!). Only fallen Christianity has "names," right? Good for you for standing against that ridiculous thought and agreeing that they do, in fact- have a name. As far as this topic goes... Quote:
You didn't CLAIM the local church was "building up the whole body of Christ" but you condemned Evangelicalism for not "considering the whole body of Christ" (in your opinion), and just (according to you) building up Evangelicalism. My apologies, I should have asked. I ASSUMED that by your judgements of Evangelicalism falling short of "building up the whole body of Christ" that you believed that the Local churches and CoC WERE building up the whole body of Christ. I guess I don't understand why you're criticizing the Evangelicalism movement for the same behavior you describe as "good" for the local church and CoC. Did you just not realize you were doing that? It's always easy to find criticism looking out, not as fun to critically examine ourselves though. The LC doesn't make a habit of critically examining itself against the concerns of former members, so I guess I can see how that would be hard since you have little guidance in this practice. On the same note, I'm sorry that you continue to criticize Christian denomination's motives in their decisions to become non-denominational. Maybe some day they'll evolve to the local church's elite model of a proper group that meets in the proper way- by first and foremost "seeing a vision of one-ness" that only the local church currently sees. After all, the Lord's Recovery has already "taken the ground" in so many cities around the earth, in an unquestionably correct and needed attempt to "recover the church." But, should we worry about the peculiar and distinct practices of the LC's with their requirement of full submission to Anaheim and LSM? Would any of those issues be a factor in the prevention of a massive exodus from congregations outside the LC, given the possibility that the non-denominational churches are unable to meet the LC's requirements of being a "proper lampstand??" Are these the only solutions the LC would need to stop criticizing fellow believers and followers of Christ- as falling short, in comparison, to themselves? Being a Christian, we're called to follow the commandment of "loving thy neighbor." So, how much more should we love our brothers and sisters in Christ? Since the Bible tells us that without love- our talents and knowledge are worthless... should I assume that your criticism of Christians (fellow members of the Body) doesn't come without lovingly praying for them? Should I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you dislike this practice of "properly admonishing" other believers and naturally, want it all to end! Ok, fine- I will. But, with your criticism I hope you also have a solution! Will you please share that? What needs to happen for all believers outside the local church to stop being criticized and accepted as your equals in the body of Christ? Unfortunately, I think we both can recognize that the likelihood of the LC viewing other Christians as "counterparts" instead of "falling short," in comparison to the LC, isn't probable- based on the LC's history of continued criticism towards them. WL's vision of all Christians outside the LC was that they weren't the "expression of Christ" like the LC but fortunately all believers outside the LC- during the tribulation, after the firstfruits (majority being in LC of course) were raptured, that the purpose of the remaining saints in the LC would be to bring all seeking Christians out of "Babylon" (Christianity) and into the local churches to be part of the 2nd rapture (was this one called "the harvest") just in time to make the 1,000 years wedding feast and avoid 1,000 years of outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. For the Christian's who had not been fully perfected into enough of a "God-man" by the time the tribulation was up- 1,000 years in outer darkness was the price to pay. WL blatantly criticized Christians outside of the LC, and had the audacity to call himself "the minister of the age." Do you really believe he was? Do you believe that EVERYTHING HE SAID AND WROTE IS TRUE?? If he really was the "MOTA-" one would assume his teachings were correct! What's your take on his last message when he (thankfully) apologized to the Body of Christ, admitted to making many mistakes, and challenged the local church to examine their practices in regards to other believers? What's your take on how the Blending Brothers "interpretation" of what WL really meant when saying these words in his last message (it's available on you tube if you'd like to hear what he chose to say to the LC in the last few minutes of his last message ever). Can you consider the possibility that the "ground of one-ness" although an excellent concept, was/still is being exploited as an excuse to look down on other members of the Body of Christ? By teaching the "ground of one-ness" in such an absolute way, ignoring the impractical issues this standard creates, and combining the "ground of one-ness" requirement with real Christian truths, and thought reform tactics, WL has succeeded in a facade of "spiritual eliteness." This is easily proven by YOUR comments, other local church members comments, and most importantly WL's comments about Christianity ("poor, poor, Christianity"). So, the REAL QUESTION IS- what would congregations and Christians outside the LC have to do to stop the LC from being so critical of them? Is it even possible? Now, since most of your "logic" and ideas seem to come from LSM material (which contain contradictions and logical errors- also explaining your indoctrinated logic), you might need to go to ministry.org to find an answer for me- I understand that may take time. Maybe calling an elder to ask would be faster. There's got to be an answer. When congregations are dropping their denominational ties, ending their practice of doctrinal agreements for potential members to sign, declaring themselves as non-denoninational, yet continuing to fellowship with churches they have in the past, and also- reaching out for fellowship with new congregations.....this is still not good enough for the local church. Why? Because, according to you... they're "not doing it for the right reasons." Do you hear yourself? Is it just a knee-jerk reaction to judge any believers positive actions outside the local church as lowly, falling short, and due to shallow motives? If I could propose a different idea about why the LSM ministry indoctrinates you and other members with these ideas about churches becoming non-denominational.... Could they be doing that because this conversion we're seeing to non-denominational congregations just isn't on the local churches terms? Even though the LC represents such a small portion of the Body of Christ, because they are the only ones "recovering" the church (a duty that no one but the LC recognizes), does that really mean that all other congregations throughout the world are supposed to model the Lord's Recovery in their congregation and submit to the authority of LSM and the Blendes? I wonder if the new non-denominational congregations stopped buying any other reading material with the exception of what LSM publishes, agreed to a standing monthly book order with them, replaced all their Bibles with the Recovery version- if that would be enough to end all the criticism from the LC? What would you suggest they do to live up to the local church standards? In your previous post (I can find your quote if you'd like me too) you said the local church did have a name, the name of the locality. Your points are getting downright hypocritical here. How can you use the logic below but still claim the LC isn't divisive by having a name? I said... "Denominations do divide - I agree. Names however- don't" Your response was this... Quote:
Your explanation of how you came to this conclusion is really off. You're basically saying that because one definition of "denomination" is "to name," accompanied with a generalized and agreed-upon thought that denominations are divisive- this CLEARLY MEANS that the NAME a denomination has is a factor in making that denomination divisive (yikes). Do you realize that if "A" plus "B" equals "C"...that doesn't mean "A" or "B" equals "C?" Denominations are divisive due to doctrinal differences and practices. With this logic, even though the leaders of CoC are full-timers employed by the LC, and EVERY CoC worker (paid or unpaid) is a LC member recruiting for the LC, under the authority of the elders in the LC- IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE because they have two different names and are automatically labeled divisive due to their name difference! I really don't think you should stick to your method of logic, it's not doing you any favors-sorry. You can't combine the divisive characteristics a denomination might have and then combine it with ONE definition of "denomination" meaning "to name," - then, conclude that the name is what makes denominations divisive. I really felt the need to clear that up, for you, and hopefully anyone who read your post that may have taken what you said at face-value. I agree the 2nd definition you posted is interesting. You've probably noticed by now that I do feel that denominations promote division among Christians. While I think it's fine to meet with people that share similar practices (with Biblical justification), I feel the judgement Christians have for each other isn't what the Lord wants us to have. There are 3 main issues of the faith that are unquestionable and must be accepted by all believers. A very simplified version of that is (bc each encompasses so much) 1) Omnipotent Triune God 2) Jesus work on the cross as a ransom for our sins 3) The Resurrection resulting in the veil being torn, and Holy Spirit available, giving us direct access to God, receive his divine life for our salvation, healing, and transformation into obedient servants of Him, which would be impossible to do on our own accord. I know that's really simplified, sorry about that- this is already very long! My point is, aside from the key issues of the faith... who are we to be so critical of fellow brothers and sisters in Christ- beyond that? I get it, I believed the lie that the Lord NEEDED the Lord's Recovery to "carry out His eternal purpose for His expression on the earth, blah blah blah" and that God had "always had a group of people" and now the Lord's Recovery were His people! How lucky for us, right?! The problem is, THE WORK HAS BEEN DONE! Remember when Jesus said, "It is finished?" Maybe the local church members should pray-read that verse a little more!! The work is done, the veil was broken, this is the Age of Grace! (hope I'm not butchering this too bad- I'm no preacher but I know the basics!) And as far as the idea that God has "always had a called out group of people" goes...yes, he did and he does. Before his resurrection, they were the Jews. But after his death and resurrection, salvation and eternal life became available to everyone- Jews and Gentiles too! His "people" now are just His church- His bride! Not the local church!! It's so ridiculous I'm embarrassed that I didn't see it for so long. Still, the fact that my family- TRUE AND GENUINE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, along with so many others, are being CONTROLLED, MANIPULATED, and EXPLOITED to the fullest extent by this disillusioned, sectarian, divisive group that employs so many cult tactics that have resulted in so much pain and destruction, and brands people I love as being a "Christian cult member," is something that I'm personally not OK with. No Christian who isn't indoctrinated with LSM thought reform should accept it. It's an abuse on the Body of Christ, so- here I am, speaking (or typing) out against it. In response to your last point, are we just all supposed to take your word on this? It seems you might consider everything LSM publishes as unquestionable truth- just like the Bible. But not everyone agrees (myself included) that LSM publishes accurate teachings so please only use the Bible to justify this statement... Quote:
Look, I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm in the process of trying to "un-indoctrinate" myself and I actually know where you're coming from. Maybe I made better arguments, but I still spent over 20 (combined) years of my life in the local church. You should read about other perspectives than the one you hold so tightly to and try to consider the criticism Christian scholars and apologetics have about the concept of "recovering the Church." Look at REAL church history (not the laughable excuse of "church history" LSM doles out with their lineage of "MOTA's") and read MULTIPLE personal accounts the people close to WL, who saw first-hand how WL decided to "execute" his "Recovery" and verify each other's testimonies. Read about the scandals followed cover-ups/attacks and listen to the audio between WL and the elder in Boston, where WL admits to mixing his personal business into church affairs and exploiting the saints. Read ELDEN1971's testimony on this site, an elder who literally started a locality after years of being involved in WL and the church's finances, only to be excommunicated bc he couldn't bring himself to tell an elder that confronted him that WL was innocent of illegal acts- even though he still believed in the vision of the local church and had given an enormous amount of grace to WL! Still, he was unable to say that WL was innocent of illegal activity without lying- so he was excommunicated. This is just one of hundreds, if not thousands of stories of abuse in the LC. Their requirement for complete submission to LSM, the BB's and elders, has created a breeding group for spiritual abuse. Have you prayed for the Lord to reveal to you whether or not the criticism towards the Lord's Recovery is legitimate? What have you heard or read about the movement other than what LSM has provided you? Feel free to message me privately or start a new thread (if you can agree to try to be logical now) and if I feel peace about it-I'll respond (no promises based on your track record), just not on this thread (feel bad for clever sister). Until then, this comes to mind. It's an excellent overview of the LC written by a former elder. I realize the name will offend you but if you can get past that- you'll actually learn a lot. www.assemblylife.com |
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04-23-2018, 10:22 PM
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#17 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 439
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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If you pray to dead human beings like Mary or some apostles....then they are your idols. If you pray to a wooden statue of long dead Buddah, then that is your idol. If you divide from the body of Christ for not receiving Witness Lee as the oracle of god, the minister of the age, the apostle of the age, the one ministry.....then Witness Lee and Living Stream Ministry is your idol...whether or not you practice transparency and "name" your group after WL or not. |
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04-23-2018, 11:12 PM
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#18 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,965
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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Practically speaking, the "body of Christ" you refer to is a plurality of denominations, and has been split into Protestant/Catholic etc for quite some time. So, I don't really know what you mean by "dividing from the body", when the body you speak of is already fractured. I think you mean "dividing from the conglomeration of denominations (minus Catholics) that we think is the body of Christ". If this is the case, then a believer "divides the body" every time they choose to attend one denomination over another because of their preference, likes/dislikes etc. And spiritually speaking, I think as long as we are believers, we cannot be divided from the body of Christ. |
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04-24-2018, 07:07 AM
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#19 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,632
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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04-24-2018, 03:22 PM
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#20 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 439
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
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Hi Evangelical, I don't view the body of our Lord as this or that denomination. Neither does He. Remember, neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor master, male nor female.... Myself and my family were practically divided from the body by the Local Church nearest us. We were quarantined, shunned, disconnected, dropped, muted, by people we loved very much, people who had spent years ingratiating themselves to my young children. This practice of excommunicating true believers, born again, Spirit regenerated christians is the division I speak of. This is the LC way....tried and true. We are not the first and we won't be the last ones to be on the receiving end of such cruel behavior. I tried for months to reconcile with our friends, while the true reasons behind their disconnection were hidden from me. The truth is, if I had ever known about this groups true beliefs, their habits of quarantining christians, I would never have been inside at all. They hide what they do...the incredibly unchristian, cold hearted practices, unless you are completely sold out for the ministry. We were deceived by this group. In the end we were just left damaged and broken hearted. I am talking about 3 precious kids who love Jesus all under the age of 12. It was the very strange shunning that caused me to look for answers online....where I find, what? This is standard procedure for the Leeites. This is the unjustified division I am talking about. My story matches everyone elses. In fact, they refuse to speak to us. Even if I reach out to them, they refuse any contact. In fact, I'm pretty sure you are not allowed to be speaking to me either, so you better watch out! Don't let them catch you at it! Seriously, though, Evangelical....come out of her. It is no place for true christians....no place for you if you love the Lord Jesus, and want to continue in His word, as His disciple....get out before they inflict damage on you or your family, if any of them are in. |
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04-24-2018, 03:28 PM
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#21 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 439
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Re: Deceptions on Campus
Also, I am sorry that last post didn't necessarily address your thread topic, cleversister. I am having trouble staying focused!
If it helps any, I was initially deceived by the LC on my college campus down in S. CA where I was attending not very far from the LSM office on Ball Rd, Anaheim. I was not brought into CoC but rather by the full time trainees serving on my campus....and so it began...
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| christians on campus, deception |
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