Deceptions on Campus

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I disagree that it is easy to find negative information. Even if I type in more specific terms such as Local Church Cult, I get hits to some websites such as "Why do some people accuse you of being a cult?" on localchurchesfaq.org. Clearly the articles which are positive and refute the negativity are in the top of the Google searches (so maybe their algorithms work afterall).
Your failure to realize this which you could have if you read the post below mine (to which I was replying to) shows you lack the ability to comprehend what you are reading and synthesize, which is typical of the younger generation.
. . . the younger generation lacks the patient to be able to trawl through a lot of data - they rarely read to the end of the page and end up twittering their friends instead for the solution. .

Evangelical, could your statements be more contradictory to your username? You're clearly trying to instigate people and your generalizations about the youth are just demeaning. I respect others opinions and even opposing ones on this page but you're just rude. While you're at it, next time you google search results on the local church, why don't you look up the definition of a troll.

Peace.

[Evangelical]

Your arguments essentially reduce to :

"cults don't reveal their "true" identity"
"The local churches don't reveal their true identity" (I have stated over and over, there is no true identity necessary to be revealed other than "Christian" - this was good enough for the early church).
"therefore the local churches are a cult"

This is refuted by the CRI's articles and others such as Gotquestions.org which temper any claims they are a cult.

As I have shown in my previous posts, few para- or inter church organizations accurately and precisely states their denominational affiliations and resources that they use. Yet the leadership are often from a one or a few denominations such as EVANGELICAL denominations ONLY (no Catholics, please).

This is really no different to the practice of the Christians on Campus so I think we can dispel with the idea of cult-like practice if we consider these facts about what the other groups are doing.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is refuted by the CRI's articles and others such as Gotquestions.org which temper any claims they are a cult.

You don’t want to bring up CRI’s credibility on this site. There’s a lot of discussion about the credibility of that organization. Actually, the DCP is currently trying to sue Harvest House bc they do include the local church in their recent book of cults. I’m assuming you didn’t know that.

Also, no- I did not say that because CoC don’t reveal their true identity- that it makes them a cult. Really? Absolutely not. There is a long list of reasons and that reason is almost in a category of “things cults do”, not “reasons it’s a cult.” And I disagree with your argument that few churches reveal their affiliations with their campus work! At least not at the college campus I live by! If you have a good reputation- it’s good advertising! If you don’t- it can scare people off. Normal churches have nothing to lose by including their name. Cults do.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

You don’t want to bring up CRI’s credibility on this site. There’s a lot of discussion about the credibility of that organization. ...

I remember being in a meeting when it was annouced that CRI had changed their position on the LC. Copies of the "We Were Wrong" issue were passed out and we were told triumphantly, "show your friends and family!"

It struck me as strange that suddenly Christless Christianity was to be believed! They were even needed to prove the legitimacy of the LC. The appeal to an authority that was, just moments ago, without the "blessing" was suspicious to say the least.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I remember being in a meeting when it was annouced that CRI had changed their position on the LC. Copies of the "We Were Wrong" issue were passed out and we were told triumphantly, "show your friends and family!"

It struck me as strange that suddenly Christless Christianity was to be believed! They were even needed to prove the legitimacy of the LC. The appeal to an authority that was, just moments ago, without the "blessing" was suspicious to say the least.

I know. I don't think there's necessarily PROOF that it was 100% a PR stunt from LC leadership...but where there's smoke- there's fire. And there's a lot of smoke!

Allegedly, the CRI article didn't address all the topics of their original claims. It's almost not relevant though bc the LC has many orthodox teachings. I would even say that MOST are orthodox. So you can argue all day about which doctrines in the LC make them a cult but that's just addressing half of the criteria when distinguishing whether or not a group is a cult. PRACTICES can also make you a cult. There IS such a thing as a Christian cult, this is something most Christian scholars believe and teach! Even if some of the doctrines are questionable, there is no doubt that they use many of the "trademark cult practices" in various degrees. There's a lot of info on this site or online about what those are. You don't get to be a Christian group and use cult practices, then get mad and sue people for calling you a cult when you're choosing to act like one. Who cares if the doctrine is "orthodox" if you're controlling and damaging your members and creating an environment that breeds spiritual abuse and exploits its members? You can "say" whatever you want and still have terrible practices!

Anyways, about CRI...nobody KNOWS the truth except those involved and God. There is enough "smoke" though to question CRI and not necessarily take their word at face value. It is also the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. It's no secret that H.H. was "clearing" the names of several aberrant groups, not just the LC. He had released similar "pardons" to other groups, one was a Christian biker group that wanted to be "gangsters for Jesus." Is it just a coincidence that CRI was profiting from selling the "We were wrong" article to the local churches (they weren't free!) and that all the sudden localities were not only praying, but sending money to support his "Bible answer man endevours?" You have to remember, the more popular that radio show gets, the more popular he becomes, the more books he can sell. If H.H. were IN the local church, they would have probably criticized him (at the very least) for being "ambitious" by selling his own Christian books but that's easy to overlook when Christianity (which ironically they claim is fallen, dead, and POOR POOR POOR) will vindicate them. Sure, CRI is profiting too but that's not the reason they're vindicating the LC, right? Who knows. It's something to think about even if you can't prove it. When you follow the money, many times things become clear. Maybe it was all genuine too, but like I said- there's enough "smoke" to look at it critically. Enough "smoke" that I don't think the local churches should be hanging their hat on that article! Of course, I'm sure so many (like I was) are unaware of the controversy bc the LC leadership isn't going to tell them about it and they don't dare to go online for fear of being poisoned. They're right but not in that way- they'll be poisoned in their ability to continue living in a cult! Ha! Ok, back to the "smoke" around CRI/Hank Hanegraff....

All this is online and easy to watch/read about if you take the time (google searches should be sufficient). There are podcasts from apologetics in the Christian community and videos on youtube from former employees of CRI describing how H.H. financially profited from "clearing" the air on whether or not certain groups were a cult. They also talk about CRI being less respected as a Christian apologetic resource compared to what it had been in the past. Many of them admired Dr. Walter Martin and being able to work at CRI was their "dream job" as an apologetic. They found themselves disappointed with the new leader, Hank Hanegraff, and describe his education (or lack there of) and the process he used to be able to answer questions quickly on "the Bible answer man" show. The calls were first screened and he had employees help him get the info fast on his screen so he could speak about it. I understand almost anyone would need that but they obviously didn't think he was qualified. He was however, a likable person with a good radio voice. Their opinions on CRI was that it was now "fluff apologetics" that doesn't tackle the really complicated doctrinal issues/debates. I have to say, if you listen to Dr. Walter Martin- he did not hold back. He was a very interesting person to say the least. It's obvious though that he had a strong faith and conviction for apologetic research. I DO have a very hard time believing he (Dr. Walter Martin-original founder of CRI) would have ever released a "We were wrong" article from CRI based on what I've seen and read from his speakings/writings. It's also important to know that the transition from Martin to Hanegraff is also controversial. Many assumed Walter's daughter would take over CRI after his death- and were surprised/some upset about H.H. coming in. From what I've read, Martin never publicly announced who he wanted to succeed him. Whatever happened/should have happened, most would agree that CRI was different after that, understandably- given the two mens's extremely different personalities and goals. For me, the biggest smoking gun with Hank was after hearing how he was meeting with the local churches in California, and the localities were praying for his "Bible answer man show"- there was a huge shift and all the sudden, he converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church- (one step away from Catholicism)! Yet, hasn't he sold books and practically based his career off being a Protestant?? That was when I REALLY felt something was off. I don't understand how that isn't extremely hypocritical on behalf of H.H. Later, I saw a video of Christian apologetics discussing this on their youtube channel/podcast and they were talking about how Hank got free radio time with the EOC and that's why he converted. He also made a lot of Protestant leaders mad, there's a lot of discussion on that as well. Who knows, but the shift from one polar opposite of the Lord's Recovery to the Eastern Orthodox church seems SO incredibly extreme that it does warrant questioning his character and his possible motivations throughout his career.

I've also heard H.H. been diagnosed with cancer and that's awful. I don't say all this to speculate or accuse. I would love to see it cleared up- either way though! All I've mentioned can be easily found online and I'd be happy to find those links to everything above if someone can't find them from a google search.

Anyways, this could probably be on another thread but I wanted to bring it up bc the article from CRI was used as "proof" the LC isn't a cult by a forum member. Nothing is that simple though, is it!? This info really helped me see the local church and LSM with their "blended brothers" (AKA "blinded brothers") for who they are. I hope it helps shed some light on the issues for those that are unfamiliar with the controversy. The local church still uses CRI's "We were wrong" article as vindication that they are a legit and sound Christian group but the article isn't something you should take at face value. This wasn't written by an objective third party apologetic research center and they didn't address the issues as you'd expect a Christian research journal would. Please do not take my word for it but look it up yourself! Doctrine is not the only issue that makes you a cult and if anything, I think that article possibly exposed more about what the local church leadership is doing in their attempts to attain a better image to the world. It's all a facade though. Until they change their practices and break ties/requirements between LSM and the localities, loosen the reins of control, humble themselves and admit past wrong-doings, as well as drop the elitist sectarian teachings/practices, they remain the same- a group of Christians with MAINLY orthodox teachings that use many cult tactics and practices. If you don't think that makes them a cult- you're entitled to believe that! But how many cult practices do you get to use and enforce on your members before you're officially a cult? Food for thought!

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is refuted by the CRI's articles and others such as Gotquestions.org which temper any claims they are a cult.

Aside from CRI not addressing the real issues in their article and LSM wining and dining Hank Hanegraff and that whole debacle...even got questions.org says because there are so many Christians that DO believe it’s a cult to “use the upmost caution and discernment when choosing to attend the local church.” If you can find a better source for credibility- please tell us! Also, it’s important to know the different between a Christian and non Christian cult. I don’t know about the LC being doctrinally a cult but it definitely uses all the cult practices- or most of them!

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your arguments essentially reduce to :
"cults don't reveal their "true" identity"
"The local churches don't reveal their true identity" (I have stated over and over, there is no true identity necessary to be revealed other than "Christian" - this was good enough for the early church).

Christian Fellowship

CF is the [local] branch of TSCF (Tertiary Students Christian Fellowship), which in turn is affiliated with IFES (International Fellowship of Evangelical Students) – connecting us with a national and international Christian community.

From the local university's website. They aren't hiding their link to Evangelicalism.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by clever sister

Christian Fellowship

CF is the [local] branch of TSCF (Tertiary Students Christian Fellowship), which in turn is affiliated with IFES (International Fellowship of Evangelical Students) – connecting us with a national and international Christian community.

From the local university's website. They aren't hiding their link to Evangelicalism.

Another point, we know for a fact that CoC is ONLY run by local church members. There may be legitimate reasons for a group to call themselves Christians on campus if it was a “mixed bag” of Christians with different backgrounds.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Another point, we know for a fact that CoC is ONLY run by local church members. There may be legitimate reasons for a group to call themselves Christians on campus if it was a “mixed bag” of Christians with different backgrounds.

Run by local church members is how it should be - it is biblical.


Three points as highlighted by gotquestions:
https://www.gotquestions.org/parachurch-ministries.html

1) parachurch ministries are usually independent of church oversight.

2) These organizations don’t have the same structure as the local church, which is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).

3) The local church is God’s plan for the building up of the saints to do the work of the ministry, and He has gifted believers to accomplish that goal (Ephesians 4:11-12).

Biblically it is the local church, not inter-church or para-church organizations which God has equipped to do the work on campuses. Biblically and historically there is little support for church-independent organizations to be doing the work without oversight from the local church.

On this basis I question their legitimacy to do work on campus if they are not overseen or run by the local church.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Run by local church members is how it should be - it is biblical.

I didn't say it shouldn't be run by church members and your point that it's biblical to be run by church members doesn't apply at all. The issue we were discussing was the name being CoC instead of their real name of who employs them. The LC employs full-timers to work on campus and run CoC- there are no other Christian groups involved. They've been legitimately criticized by mainstream Christianity for being "deceitful" in their recruiting tactics- with one of the ways being the issue of using a different name. You can look that up yourself! They've been criticized for it and it is true, that cults also recruit this way. It's not a great way to be viewed- doing the same thing cults do and excluding your name from a group thats undoubtedly run by them.

Anyways, I never said that local church members running the group was wrong- I have no issue with that. To my knowledge- no one does. We were talking about their two names and I didn't even say that was unbiblical- just a bad practice! There are a lot of things in life that you aren't going to be able to straightforwardly pin point to Scripture for a clear answer. I don't think the Bible addresses either issue of who should run campus ministry groups and how they should be named but my point is, you're bringing up an issue that isn't being debated and then implying that my position on the new subject you've brought up is unbiblical. Stick to the issues please and make points that apply to the argument.
You may be doing this intentionally in an effort to frustrate me or maybe you're just not great at debating...not sure. I'm happy to keep this up though.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I didn't say it shouldn't be run by church members and your point that it's biblical to be run by church members doesn't apply at all. The issue we were discussing was the name being CoC instead of their real name of who employs them. The LC employs full-timers to work on campus and run CoC- there are no other Christian groups involved. They've been legitimately criticized by mainstream Christianity for being "deceitful" in their recruiting tactics- with one of the ways being the issue of using a different name. You can look that up yourself! They've been criticized for it and it is true, that cults also recruit this way. It's not a great way to be viewed- doing the same thing cults do and excluding your name from a group thats undoubtedly run by them.

Anyways, I never said that local church members running the group was wrong- I have no issue with that. To my knowledge- no one does. We were talking about their two names and I didn't even say that was unbiblical- just a bad practice! There are a lot of things in life that you aren't going to be able to straightforwardly pin point to Scripture for a clear answer. I don't think the Bible addresses this issue but you can try to say it's biblical all you want for local church members to run a campus ministry but you're totally off subject. Intentionally, perhaps? Or maybe just not great at debating...not sure. I'm happy to keep this up though.

We cannot really separate the matter of names from the matter of denominations versus the local church because this is what is causing the confusion.

You may see the local church as any member from any denomination participating. I disagree. If a presbyterian participates, it is the presbyterian church, not the local church, participating. If a student asks that person "which church should I go to", that presbyterian may say "you can come to mine if you like". So a student would be "recruited" to presbyterianism. Very unlikely that the presbyterian volunteer would suggest a student go to a Catholic church I think. Thus proving they are not about "building up the Body" but evangelicalism.

Clearly, the group which represents evangelicalism is only a part of the body (what about pentecostals and Catholics etc?).

The only group which represents the local church as a whole is Christians on campus. For this reason it is valid for them to be named as simply Christians. The moment the name "evangelical" or "Witness Lee" is added to the name, it becomes a denominational group.

In the minds of the local church members, there is no such thing as "the church of Witness Lee", or "the Local Church" (in capital letters), and "Living Stream Ministry" is the ministry and not the church. So by not naming the group as anything other than "Christians on campus" they are being true to their beliefs and therefore the claims of deception are unfounded. I do not believe that the local church members believe themselves to be part of a denomination called "the church of Witness Lee". For this reason you cannot claim deception.

What is more like deception, is individuals who attend a certain denomination of their choice every Sunday, pretending to be "just Christians" or "just evangelical Christians" on campus. The leader may be presbyterian, the lead missionary may be a baptist, and maybe another is a pentecostal. They do not reveal their true denominational affiliation to the students, knowing well, that they are devoted to a denomination in their heart and on a Sunday. This is entirely different to the local churches, who do not believe they are a denomination of any kind. This confusion is evident when students are converted to "Christianity", only to be faced with the tough decision of "which church should I attend this Sunday", then, they realize that Christianity is really divided into many different groups.

Also, it may vary from campus to campus, but I think there are more volunteers from the local churches involved than full timers. It costs a lot of money to support full timers and it is better to get volunteers (including student volunteers) to devote their weekends of after work hours than full timers.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Run by local church members is how it should be - it is biblical.


Three points as highlighted by gotquestions:
https://www.gotquestions.org/parachurch-ministries.html

1) parachurch ministries are usually independent of church oversight.

2) These organizations don’t have the same structure as the local church, which is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).

3) The local church is God’s plan for the building up of the saints to do the work of the ministry, and He has gifted believers to accomplish that goal (Ephesians 4:11-12).

Biblically it is the local church, not inter-church or para-church organizations which God has equipped to do the work on campuses. Biblically and historically there is little support for church-independent organizations to be doing the work without oversight from the local church.

On this basis I question their legitimacy to do work on campus if they are not overseen or run by the local church.

Ok, that's fine that you question their legitimacy to do work on campus without being overseen or run by the local church. I didn't have a problem with that.

My issue is with them using two different names and excluding CoC's affiliation with the local church that runs it, while recruiting and during the initial stages of their interactions with college kids.

You're trying to prove a point on an argument that no one is having. No one has said that it's wrong to have local church employees run a campus ministry, right? I'll have to scroll down but I'm pretty sure that again- you're twisting this argument.

In an effort to clarify why a group shouldn't use a different name (or totally exclude their name) than the one they're employed by or a member of, I went on to point out that CoC was ONLY run by local church employees and student members.

You seem to be taking my clarification of who the group is run by (in an effort to show why they shouldn't have a different name), and twist it to say that I have an issue with the fact that LC members are running a campus ministry in the first place.

That isn't my issue so again, your opinions on who should or shouldn't be involved with a campus ministry are completely off topic and please stop implying that I've taken an stance on an issue that I never took and aren't even legitimate concerns.

You've got to be doing this on purpose, right?

What's your deal?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Ok, that's fine that you question their legitimacy to do work on campus without being overseen or run by the local church. I didn't have a problem with that.

My issue is with them using two different names and excluding CoC's affiliation with the local church that runs it, while recruiting and during the initial stages of their interactions with college kids.

You're trying to prove a point on an argument that no one is having. No one has said that it's wrong to have local church employees run a campus ministry, right? I'll have to scroll down but I'm pretty sure that again- you're twisting this argument.

In an effort to clarify why a group shouldn't use a different name (or totally exclude their name) than the one they're employed by or a member of, I went on to point out that CoC was ONLY run by local church employees and student members.

You seem to be taking my clarification of who the group is run by in an effort to show why they shouldn't have a different name, and twist it to say that I have an issue with the fact that LC members are running a campus ministry in the first place.

That isn't my issue so again, your opinions on who should or shouldn't be involved with a campus ministry are completely off point and insinuating that I've made an argument which I've never made.

OK, getting back on primary topic, let's consider alternatives to the deception argument, one being:

"the requirements of the campus to allow "Christians on Campus" to be present." (as the OP stated)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by clever sister

Christian Fellowship

CF is the [local] branch of TSCF (Tertiary Students Christian Fellowship), which in turn is affiliated with IFES (International Fellowship of Evangelical Students) – connecting us with a national and international Christian community.

From the local university's website. They aren't hiding their link to Evangelicalism.

I accept that, although some are, I believe. There is a Catholic forum discussion topic I found regarding whether the Navigators group is for or against Catholics. They conclude the latter not because of any clear statement from the Navigators but by inference from their stated belief in sola-scriptura. When these groups use the term "Christian community" they clearly are referring to only one particular branch of Christianity - evangelicalism.

As leastofthese incorrectly remarked "These groups are not about growing a local church or a denomination - they're about growing the Body".

To be strictly correct, "they're about growing Evangelicalism" which is a crossdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity . So clearly, they are about growing particular denominations and particular local churches which are part of that denominational flavor. Evangelicalism is but one of a number of movements including pentecostalism, Catholicism, etc and these groups clearly do not consider the whole Body of Christ.

I am aware that these groups will from time to time, hire the facilities belonging to a particular denomination in order to carry out some sort of service. For example, they might utilize a local baptist or Presbyterian church for the purpose of conducting a special service or talk from a local or invited guest. Why they did not utilize the facilitates of a Catholic church? Partly because they are not comfortable holding a meeting in the presence of Mary and other idols, but mostly because of some denominational affiliation and connection with these local churches. I really do not see the difference between this practice and the practice of the local churches in welcoming students to the Sunday meeting at the meeting hall or home group fellowships.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I accept that, although some are, I believe. There is a Catholic forum discussion topic I found regarding whether the Navigators group is for or against Catholics. They conclude the latter not because of any clear statement from the Navigators but by inference from their stated belief in sola-scriptura. When these groups use the term "Christian community" they clearly are referring to only one particular branch of Christianity - evangelicalism.

As leastofthese incorrectly remarked "These groups are not about growing a local church or a denomination - they're about growing the Body".

To be strictly correct, "they're about growing Evangelicalism" which is a crossdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity . So clearly, they are about growing particular denominations and particular local churches which are part of that denominational flavor. Evangelicalism is but one of a number of movements including pentecostalism, Catholicism, etc and these groups clearly do not consider the whole Body of Christ.

I am aware that these groups will from time to time, hire the facilities belonging to a particular denomination in order to carry out some sort of service. For example, they might utilize a local baptist or Presbyterian church for the purpose of conducting a special service or talk from a local or invited guest. Why they did not utilize the facilitates of a Catholic church? Partly because they are not comfortable holding a meeting in the presence of Mary and other idols, but mostly because of some denominational affiliation and connection with these local churches. I really do not see the difference between this practice and the practice of the local churches in welcoming students to the Sunday meeting at the meeting hall or home group fellowships.

You don't? What you're describing with an evangelical group using a particular denomination's facilities to further their efforts, involves two different groups of people. CoC leaders are either employed by the local church or they're members of the local church that are volunteering their time. How is that the same as one group hiring out the facilities of another group that they're comfortable with? The local church owns the property that CoC uses. That's not the same as an evangelical group (which in general, focuses on preaching the gospel to all Protestant groups/churches that believe in justification by faith) using a church facilities that they're comfortable with- come on! Churches want to gain members- evangelical groups do not, unless you count the ones that want to join the movement- but that is on a much smaller scale than the amount of people in churches and every churches need to have a relatively healthy amount of members. Your statement about evangelicals wanting to grow certain denominations may be slightly true due to some denominations being more sectarian than others or having bad practices or reputations- but it's still vastly more inclusive than the local church's idea of "growing the Body" and they will generally be willing to preach in any Protestant church. Aside from "fundi" sectarian groups that are by nature unhealthy and probably wouldn't welcome them , the only group Evangelical's don't work with are Catholics and that is because unfortunately, Catholic doctrine is blatantly against the "saved by grace" doctrine. That doesn't mean there aren't Christians there that have been saved on their own accord, but clearly evangelicals believe in "saved by grace" and that contradicts the Catholic Churches teaching. Still, I believe many evangelical preachers (at least my great grandpa) would go there and preach the gospel given the chance-ha!! Do you really think the local church would just let an evangelist come in and "do his thing" for a meeting? I hope they would! I have to admit, given over 20 years in that group- I've never seen it, heard of it, and have to say I'm doubtful it would happen. Even if it did, I'm sure there would be disapproval, if not consequences, from the blending brothers in Anaheim and LSM.

Have to point out too that while you can say technically that all these are "movements," -I'm sure you know evangelism is the only movement that isn't it's own church or its own denomination. The Catholic church views itself as the "one true church" and Pentecostalism resulted in the Pentecostal denomination. You said that Evangelism, Pentecostalism, and Catholicism clearly don't consider the whole body of Christ? Wow. I hope you're meaning (1)they're not interested in seeing any other part of the body of Christ grow (aside from their flavor) and not that (2)they don't recognize other Christians as part of the Body of Christ. If it's the first, then the local church has to be the MOST guilty of the ones you listed, given their size and practices in comparison to the others! By your logic, when evangelicals want the body of Christ to grow it would include all Protestants denominations they "prefer" (still a lot!). For the Pentecostals, its would include all their splintering denominations. For the LC, you're talking about growing one pinkie toe (in comparison to the other groups) of the body of Christ. The LC isn't interested in investing any time with people without the desire that they would become part of the local church. It's an understandable wish for all denominations and sects! I'm just making the point that if you meant those three groups you listed didn't "consider the whole body of Christ" when furthering their efforts, then the local church would be the most guilty considering their strict recruitment styles and expectations of members. How many times have I heard, "they're not good material for the Body." Really? The body of what? The local church body or the body of Christ? However, if you meant the 2nd thats a pretty extreme statement. I hope its not and I'm truly trying to help you at this point. I'm no expert but you need to hear this-even from me! You're right about Catholics not representing (or recognizing) the whole body of Christ but that is bc of their doctrine (as I mentioned above). Pentecostals recognize anyone who is "born again" as a member of the body of Christ (at least mainstream/non-sectarian ones do!). As far as the Evangelical movement, they will be in any church preaching that sinners are saved by grace, through faith, by Jesus Christ- who died on the cross as a ransom for our sins. They stick to the basics! They also recognize the entire body of Christ as those who are "born again" (even the ones in the Catholic church who are saved in spite of wrong doctrine) and your reasoning for their "preference" of where they might like to preach or what facilities in what denominations they may use as a proof that they don't "consider the whole body of Christ" is awful! There is no logic there- you're using imagined preference that ALL evangelicals MUST have (according to you) on where they're most comfortable preaching and using that as proof that they "clearly do not consider the whole Body of Christ?" Even with that tainted logic- explain what you mean by "consider" or you'll get all the above questioning someone would have to do to even try to begin to understand the multiple possibilities of the point you're trying to make.

Sorry, I know I'm giving you are hard time. I appreciate your strong stance on it but you need to make a better argument. I think I'm following you but if I'm not missing anything- you're so very much OFF, with all due respect.

I just want to make sure I'm understanding your argument. Your last paragraph is to justify what? It looks like (although I don't know why you're trying to justify this non-issue) that you're trying to validate that the local churches welcome students from CoC to the Sunday meeting at the meeting hall or people's homes and that it's ok that they want to "grow the body of Christ" by having CoC recruit college kids? Well, I don't really have a problem with this at all, bc the LC and CoC are the same people! What difference does it make? A CoC member inviting you to a meeting is still a local church member inviting you to one! The issue people have is that they separate themselves intentionally from the LC (due to it's bad reputation), and engage in a common cult recruitment tactic- creating a different name for themselves than the one of the group they actually work for. Once, they've hooked you and relationships are formed, they'll let you know about their affiliation with the LC, once you're in too deep to leave (their hope!). Obviously, their goal is to increase the members in the local church, like other groups, and that would be fine... except, it's a problem of HOW they're doing it, not the fact that they're doing it! Just be upfront about who you are and stop using deceitful recruiting practices and people wouldn't have such a problem with CoC bc it would be called something affiliated with their real name or their real name.

But the real issue (if I'm understanding correctly) is that you're trying to correct LeastofThese comment about how evangelical groups want to increase the WHOLE body of Christ and CoC doesn't. To prove his statement wrong, you're comparing how evangelical's (the LC in comparison) use the facilities of the denominations they prefer (the CoC house in comparison) and when the local church members invite students from CoC to the meetings to help "increase the Body" that it's the same as an evangelical group going to a denomination of their choice to preach the gospel and "increase the body."

Am I understanding correctly?

[Intothewind]

What is wrong with

Living Stream Ministry on Campus

Gospel of Witness Lee on Campus

Local Church movement on campus

It is not "just Christians"(and the people running it are proud of that). Why not brand it for more discerning tastes?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

What is wrong with
Living Stream Ministry on Campus
Gospel of Witness Lee on Campus
Local Church movement on campus
It is not "just Christians"(and the people running it are proud of that). Why not brand it for more discerning tastes?

Too much bad press with the Lord’s Recovery so they choose the sneaky option.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

What is wrong with
Living Stream Ministry on Campus
Gospel of Witness Lee on Campus
Local Church movement on campus
It is not "just Christians"(and the people running it are proud of that). Why not brand it for more discerning tastes?

I put this question to you - how many types of Christians are there?