Apostles in The Church: Yesterday and Today

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Why should a young person or a new believer have to worry about being duped in the first place?

I thought I responded to this.

1. Why should anyone? Because man is destined to rule and replace Satan who is a liar. He is not happy with that and has been deceiving the "weak link" ever since he deceived Eve.

2. The NT gives us very much detail on dealing with false prophets, false brothers, "super apostles", etc. Why would the apostles warn us of this if it was unnecessary?

Again, the number that I picked is not random, it is based on reasonable principles, but it is certainly not definitive. The Lord will judge, not me or you. But what is certain is that I cannot control what others do, only what I do. Therefore, if I go around blaming others for my being duped there is no hope of improvement. On the other hand if I realize what was the warning signal that I should have paid more attention to then I can begin to heed these warnings and learn from them. Therefore, to answer your question, I think the reason a "young" person or any person for that matter should worry about being duped is because this is an important lesson that we need to learn if we are going to rule and reign with Christ.

Once again, consider the number. Suppose WL spoke to 20,000 (a conservative number) and only 1 person felt "duped". Then I think it is reasonable that most of the responsibility for that should be on the person who felt duped, but not all. Perhaps WL could have spoken more clearly. On the other hand if ten people felt duped then that is a pretty strong testimony that should not be ignored, even though 19,990 disagree. Still, it is not at all clear that WL should bear the greater responsibility for that. But, if it is 100 people, or 1,000 people then you have a real problem and significant culpability. James warned us about this and the risk involved in being a teacher.

You give someone far too much power if a single person complaining about being duped could damage a ministry. Bare minimum you need 2 or 3 credible witnesses before it should even be considered. Again, these are scriptural principles. In this matter of being duped I want 2 or 3 credible examples (Daystar, PL, Sister's rebellion) and at least 10 people who witnessed this.

The Lord said "7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh!" Why is it necessary? Read the context, He is talking about "causing little ones who believe on Him to stumble".

[Cal]

I was duped because I thought the intense spiritual experiences I had in the LC supported their claims of being "God's best," and that you "could not leave the church."

I've since learned when you get very committed Christians together all seeking the Lord you will have similar experiences in meetings and fellowship.

Most churches these days have all levels of commitment, so the experience of a Sunday morning service might not be as overflowing as you might like.

But if you go to a retreat or similar event, where everyone there is much more committed, you will begin to see the same kind of overflow we had in the LC.

It's simply a matter of the Lord responding to the intensity of the "two or three gathered in his name." It had nothing to do with being "God's unique move."

I'm sure many LCers like the environment that expects a high level of commitment. It does have its upside and advantages. But it doesn't make you "God's best."

[ZNPaaneah]

I think this is why I don't consider that I was duped. We spent a lot of time talking about consecrating everything on the altar. If you are a burnt offering it is hard to be offended. I was told up front by Ray G that the Christian life was to be fully consecrated on the altar. I was told I had to give everything, so how can you view anything after that as "having been duped"?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think this is why I don't consider that I was duped. We spent a lot of time talking about consecrating everything on the altar. If you are a burnt offering it is hard to be offended. I was told up front by Ray G that the Christian life was to be fully consecrated on the altar. I was told I had to give everything, so how can you view anything after that as "having been duped"?

Because we often equated the Lord with "Christ and the church."

In other words, many of us ended up consecrating our time, our heart, our money, and our lives not just to the Lord, but to a ministry and a local program. Often we ended up with the church, but not with the Lord or our families.

But I understand that you were different.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Because we often equated the Lord with "Christ and the church."

In other words, many of us ended up consecrating our time, our heart, our money, and our lives not just to the Lord, but to a ministry and a local program. Often we ended up with the church, but not with the Lord or our families.

I learned a lesson from Michael Jordan that I think we could all benefit from. Initially he was a very high scoring offensive player who made up about 33% of his teams offense. As a result other teams created all kinds of defensive schemes aimed solely at stopping him. The best defender on the team played him, etc. Instead of crying about how he was being "duped" he learned from them. He was getting tutored by the best defensive players, best defensive minds, and best defensive schemes. As a result he soon became defensive player of the year and was named to the all defensive team seven times.

Did it ever occur to those who are so upset that "all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose."?

Perhaps this experience we had in the LRC which WL called "Training" was exactly the training that the Lord wanted for us?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I learned a lesson from Michael Jordan that I think we could all benefit from. Initially he was a very high scoring offensive player who made up about 33% of his teams offense. As a result other teams created all kinds of defensive schemes aimed solely at stopping him. The best defender on the team played him, etc. Instead of crying about how he was being "duped" he learned from them. He was getting tutored by the best defensive players, best defensive minds, and best defensive schemes. As a result he soon became defensive player of the year and was named to the all defensive team seven times.

Did it ever occur to those who are so upset that "all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose."?

Perhaps this experience we had in the LRC which WL called "Training" was exactly the training that the Lord wanted for us?

Well, yes and no. Yes, God can cause all things to work for good. But God doesn't send the evil. He places us in a world where we are challenged by negative things, but he doesn't create the negative.

If your point is that how we bounce back is all-important, I agree. And it's a good point. If your point is "it's all good," I disagree.

But let's not rehash "the problem of evil" again, please!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, yes and no. Yes, God can cause all things to work for good. But God doesn't send the evil. He places us in a world where we are challenged by negative things, but he doesn't create the negative.

If your point is that how we bounce back is all-important, I agree. And it's a good point.:

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the fire of coals, and bringeth forth a weapon for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness which is of me, saith Jehovah.

God made the smith that makes the weapons. He makes the destroyer who wields the weapons. So there is no one better able to train us. Hence his promise that "no weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper".

The promise is not that no one will form a weapon against us. The promise is not that no tongue shall rise against you in judgment. No. The promise is that you shall defeat everyone that does. You shall "condemn them". That is the promise.

[UntoHim]

ZNP,
Please stay on topic. Michael Jordan? Really? You equate teams devising ways to keep a pro basketball player from scoring to the misleading and abuse of God's people? That's a stretch and that's way off topic.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Did it ever occur to those who are so upset that "all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose."?

Perhaps this experience we had in the LRC which WL called "Training" was exactly the training that the Lord wanted for us?

What may be great "training" for you and I, may also stumble some of God's children. I seem to remember reading about some "thief" who comes only to steal, destroy, and kill.

Hey, with "words of wisdom" like yours, why do we even need apostles? Why do we need pastors or shepherds? Why are there scriptures warning the church? Why is there judgment for those who stumble the little ones? Why do we even need the Bible?

Does not "all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose?"

Don't worry, be happy! "All things work together for good!"

[UntoHim]

Ok guys, let's get back to "Apostles in The Church: Yesterday and Today".
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I was duped because I thought the intense spiritual experiences I had in the LC supported their claims of being "God's best," and that you "could not leave the church."

I've since learned when you get very committed Christians together all seeking the Lord you will have similar experiences in meetings and fellowship.

Agreed. I never (at least not initially) thought that being the "only church in town" brought us the fresh, living joy of the Spirit in the meetings. I based that on our consecration and departure from tradition to return to scripture. These exclusive and elitest teachings crept in unawares, perhaps already espoused by others, but not by me.

I have said repeatedly that LC leaders took advantage of the trust which young brothers (like myself) and sisters placed in them. That abuse of "playing God" with the church was systemic in the leadership. The Lord Jesus referred to this as "ruling like the Gentiles do, flaunting their authority." (Mt. 20.25 et. al.)

In Paul's letter to Titus concerning the qualifications of church leaders (1.11), he definitively exposes those who would use teachings for personal profit. This word "aischrokerdos" is translated "filthy lucre" in the KJV, but it does not refer solely to financial gain. It really means "fond of base gain, greedy of shameful profit, or given to personal advantage." Paul repeats this admonishing descriptor to Timothy, (I Tm 3.8) and Peter also duplicates this warning. (I Peter 5.2)

And here was our downfall in the so-called Recovery -- Leadership corrupted by personal gains. They placed base gain and personal advantage above the church of God and above righteousness.