Apostles in The Church: Yesterday and Today

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

Igzy,

The truth is bigger than you... or me.. or anyone else.

However, if you want to interpret scriptural truth through the filter of your experience that is your prerogative. Have at it. But for the sake of others I will make the observation when I see it. Sorry that angers or bothers you as my intention is not to cause you any discomfort.

Regards,
Drake

And I will point out when you are interpreting scripture in a vacuum, and not adequately examining the fruit of fringe doctrines whose validity is far from certain, particular ones that subject people to lording control.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

And I will point out when you are interpreting scripture in a vacuum, and not adequately examining the fruit of fringe doctrines whose validity is far from certain, particular ones that subject people to lording control.

If by vacuum you mean you want me to interpret the truth of the Bible through the filter of YOUR experience... well, it ain’t gonna happen. I will consider your point of view until I see you discarding the Bible in favor of your private interpretation. One thing you can be sure of, I will not let your doctrines, fringe or otherwise, to lord control over me.

Thanks
Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

If by vacuum you mean you want me to interpret the truth of the Bible through the filter of YOUR experience... well, it ain’t gonna happen.
Thanks
Drake

Well, then I'm going to ignore your experience, including any experience you've had of coming to understanding of the truth. Including any experience of logic and reasoning you've had. Live in your vacuum and ignore the insights and lives of others if that suits you. Be a hermit. Just don't build any bombs, okay?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, then I'm going to ignore your experience, including any experience you've had of coming to understanding of the truth. Including any experience of logic and reasoning you've had. Live in your vacuum and ignore the insights and lives of others if that suits you. Be a hermit. Just don't build any bombs, okay?

Igzy,

You already do that. You not only disregard my point of view but you also constantly undermine my person. Instead of considering my point of view in the sincerity in which it is delivered you consistently try to paint me into the strawman that makes it easy for you to discount what I tell you. I think I understand why you do it, but I am not willing to allow you to define me, nor to define what I believe.

Now to your point above, I believe experience is very valuable and essential in the Christian life. This is another example of taking what I am saying and either misunderstanding or purposely twisting it. I would like to believe the former and not the latter so I continue to repeat myself because I want to believe that you are simply misunderstanding. But the pattern is so frequent and so consistent that I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that you are purposely recasting what I say because it is easier for you to debate the person you need me to be than the person I really am.

So understand, that I do not discount experience, nor do I discount your experience. I just do not accept the way you interpret scripture about apostles because of your bad experience .

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

So understand, that I do not discount experience, nor do I discount your experience. I just do not except the way you interpret scripture about apostles because of your bad experience .

Yes, I agree with this. However, "not discounting this experience" requires that we find the truth in the scripture that will reconcile all the concerns of abuse and fraudulent claims of apostleship.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

Igzy,

Until you start respecting people who have been hurt by the LCM don't expect me to respect you.

God said "I will have mercy on them that show mercy." You are merciless to those people. Why do you expect mercy?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Until you start respecting people who have been hurt by the LCM don't expect me to respect you.

God said "I will have mercy on them that show mercy." You are merciless to those people. Why do you expect mercy?

And there you go again....spinning this same tangled web.

I have upmost respect for people who have been hurt. Always have. That assertion is yet another cover to justify discrediting me and my beliefs. For someone who dons the mantle of a champion of hurt people you show an incredible lack of sensitivity to others you slander and defame on a daily basis.

You simply cannot tolerate people who differ with you and your viewpoints. Questioning your ideas most always leads to an aggressive personal attack campaign on the person who challenges you. Your responses in this thread are the quintessential demonstration of lack of respect for believers who do not see as you do. Go back and read when we stopped talking about the discussion of apostles and veered off into this sidebar. It always happens the same way Igzy, I ask you to validate your teachings from the Bible and you respond by questioning my motives and disparaging my character. If you claim concern for hurting people, how about you also demonstrate some care for brothers and sisters in the Lords Recovery instead of calling them names and demeaning their intelligence or commitment to follow the Lord according to thier convictions.

Now, we started this thread to address doctrine you promoted concerning apostles. I challenged you with scriptural responses showing that they were not according to the biblical revelation, and you have responded with a different view and that is fine, the reader can decide for themselves. My objection to part of your argument is that you front ended it with the argument that by accepting that apostles still exist might lead to a claim that Witness Lee was an apostle and therefore it must be dismissed. Well my friend, it does not matter whether that happens or not your logic to dismiss the revelation in the Bible over that concern is misplaced. That is not how to interpret the Bible nor understand the truths revealed therein. My second objection is you defended your argument with a fallacy citing that 99% of the Church agrees with you. Of course, you cannot know that 99% of the Church agrees with you. It’s a fallacy.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

I have upmost respect for people who have been hurt. Always have. That assertion is yet another cover to justify discrediting me and my beliefs.

You mean those same beliefs that hurt the people you claim to respect?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

You not only disregard my point of view but you also constantly undermine my person. Instead of considering my point of view in the sincerity in which it is delivered you consistently try to paint me into the strawman that makes it easy for you to discount what I tell you. I think I understand why you do it, but I am not willing to allow you to define me, nor to define what I believe.

Drake, here's the bottom line. Until you start showing some concern for the people who have been hurt by this movement, I don't give a flying flip about what you believe.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Igzy

And I will point out when you are interpreting scripture in a vacuum, and not adequately examining the fruit of fringe doctrines whose validity is far from certain, particular ones that subject people to lording control.

How can one not interpret scripture in a vacuum? If I grew up in the LSM churches or it was all I knew - I wonder where I would be today. Without the Holy Spirit in us aren't we destined to see all things through the vacuum of our fleshly minds?

Where the LSM churches disassociates themselves from other evangelical denominations is the expectation (some could argue for a stronger word than expectation) of "group think" that is derived from the spoken word of Witness Lee. Any diversion from Lee is a cause for alarm - which manifests itself in many different ways.

Do many LSM church members genuinely believe they've found THE way? I think so, from my experience. But then again, I'd answer in the affirmative if the same question was asked about a Jehovah Witness, Morman, a member of Westboro Baptist Church (I actually don't know any of these guys, but have learned a bit about them)....

In mainstream evangelical Christianity, whether non-denominational, baptist, methodist, etc - I have not seen or heard of the thought that 'it is my denominations way or the highway' - actually quite the opposite. I've had many discussions around this thought with different believers and they've also agreed with my observations. I think that is why the LSM churches stick out like a sore thumb for those looking to place a "cult" label.