Apostles in The Church: Yesterday and Today

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

Igzy,

Until you start respecting people who have been hurt by the LCM don't expect me to respect you.

God said "I will have mercy on them that show mercy." You are merciless to those people. Why do you expect mercy?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Until you start respecting people who have been hurt by the LCM don't expect me to respect you.

God said "I will have mercy on them that show mercy." You are merciless to those people. Why do you expect mercy?

And there you go again....spinning this same tangled web.

I have upmost respect for people who have been hurt. Always have. That assertion is yet another cover to justify discrediting me and my beliefs. For someone who dons the mantle of a champion of hurt people you show an incredible lack of sensitivity to others you slander and defame on a daily basis.

You simply cannot tolerate people who differ with you and your viewpoints. Questioning your ideas most always leads to an aggressive personal attack campaign on the person who challenges you. Your responses in this thread are the quintessential demonstration of lack of respect for believers who do not see as you do. Go back and read when we stopped talking about the discussion of apostles and veered off into this sidebar. It always happens the same way Igzy, I ask you to validate your teachings from the Bible and you respond by questioning my motives and disparaging my character. If you claim concern for hurting people, how about you also demonstrate some care for brothers and sisters in the Lords Recovery instead of calling them names and demeaning their intelligence or commitment to follow the Lord according to thier convictions.

Now, we started this thread to address doctrine you promoted concerning apostles. I challenged you with scriptural responses showing that they were not according to the biblical revelation, and you have responded with a different view and that is fine, the reader can decide for themselves. My objection to part of your argument is that you front ended it with the argument that by accepting that apostles still exist might lead to a claim that Witness Lee was an apostle and therefore it must be dismissed. Well my friend, it does not matter whether that happens or not your logic to dismiss the revelation in the Bible over that concern is misplaced. That is not how to interpret the Bible nor understand the truths revealed therein. My second objection is you defended your argument with a fallacy citing that 99% of the Church agrees with you. Of course, you cannot know that 99% of the Church agrees with you. It’s a fallacy.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

I have upmost respect for people who have been hurt. Always have. That assertion is yet another cover to justify discrediting me and my beliefs.

You mean those same beliefs that hurt the people you claim to respect?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

I have upmost respect for people who have been hurt. Always have. That assertion is yet another cover to justify discrediting me and my beliefs.

You admitted people have been hurt. So what hurt them? Obviously some malfunction in the LCM. Well, what was that? What was the malfunction that hurt them? My contention is it is rooted in the warped view of spiritual authority, that is exemplified in the LCM's view of apostles--hence my objection to your defense of that view.

So tell me... if people were hurt and you respect them, what hurt them? What went wrong that they were hurt? You are not suggesting their hurt was their fault, or that God intended to hurt them, are you? So what was the source of their hurt? Who was the offender? Who was the hurter?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You admitted people have been hurt. So what hurt them? Obviously some malfunction in the LCM. Well, what was that? What was the malfunction that hurt them? My contention is it is rooted in the warped view of spiritual authority, that is exemplified in the LCM's view of apostles--hence my objection to your defense of that view.

So tell me... if people were hurt and you respect them, what hurt them? What went wrong that they were hurt? You are not suggesting their hurt was their fault, or that God intended to hurt them, are you? So what was the source of their hurt? Who was the offender? Who was the hurter?

I have always felt that 90% of the blame for people being deceived is on the people who were deceived.

Malcolm X shared that he used to sell cheap knock off watches on the street under the inferred pretense that they were stolen. He said when the police would come to arrest him you always went with them to keep up the allusion that in fact they were stolen, which is why the dupes were paying him exorbitant prices for cheap watches.

I once observed a very wealthy stock broker sell. He created the allusion in his pitch that he was a market maker for large block purchases by fund managers and that he put additional trades in at the same time so they all could benefit from the resulting bump in the stocks price. That of course would be illegal. Many of the people who he called would think this guy has made a mistake calling me. I couldn't understand why this approach would work, who would want to do business with a stock broker who is implying that he is a crook. But he explained that he is speaking to their greed (deep calleth to deep, greed calleth to greed).

As for those in the LRC I think the idea of being "an elite" Christian, and having a shortcut to becoming an overcomer. This is what WL was speaking to. If you desire to have the preeminence in the Lord's move, then WL was singing your song.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have always felt that 90% of the blame for people being deceived is on the people who were deceived.

Depends on the age and experience of the people involved. The LCM indoctrinates young people and children.

Either way that doesn't get the deceivers off the hook. They are culpable too.

Drake says he cares about the people who have been hurt. Well, how is he demonstrating that care? By continuing to support the systems and people that hurt them? I don't get that. His care is abstract. Love is a verb. It means taking action. James 2:17 says, "... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." The Bible says over and over "Seek justice for the oppressed." To me this includes the many people who have been hurt by the LCM system. So how are we to take action to help them? Speaking out on this board is one way.

The question we all should be asking is, why did so many people get hurt? The answer must be there is something wrong with the system. And it's clear to me that the problem boils down to their teaching that people have no choice but to remain in that system and follow those leaders. I cannot see how those teachings can be true, given their fruit and the fact that biblically they are questionable. So I don't believe them.

My belief is that where they went wrong is with a legalistic application of locality, conferring too much authority to extra-local workers, and the idea that their movement is a special move of God in which one must remain. All these beliefs work to hold people in the LCM. So once in the system a person who has compelling reasons to leave experiences intense inner conflicts which are psychologically, spiritually and relationally damaging. This is the source of the hurt, the same hurt Drake claims to care about.

I believe my views of apostleship are viable. Drake says they are not scriptural and contain logical fallacies. He is entitled to his opinion, but I feel no necessity to agree with him. I believe God cares about people first, and don't believe he would ever set up a system that would result in so many people getting hurt. Given that the core beliefs that support that system are biblically questionable anyway, I feel I can ignore them.

I don't have to "prove" I'm right on this board. And Drake is not the judge to say whether I've done so anyway. He can argue all day that the LCM system is sound biblically. I’ll just keep asking “Then why is it so damaging?” I don’t agree that it is biblically sound to begin with, even without the damage. But with it as far as I’m personally concerned the case is closed.

So, when I point these things out and wonder aloud about where Drake's heart is, he doesn't explain how he can live with and even defend these things, he just complains that I'm slandering him. But the other shoe never drops where he explains why he continues to defend a religious system which is damaging. He just acts like it's not damaging while claiming to care about the people who he admits were damaged. I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether that makes any sense.

If I'm misinterpreting him, Drake is free to explain himself better than he has. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to clarify things, rather than complain that I follow the few dots he's given us exactly to where they lead?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have always felt that 90% of the blame for people being deceived is on the people who were deceived.

So yes, Z, in the end we all must decide what to believe and take control of our lives. It's a sad person who spends the rest of his life blaming something in his past for his state. We all must learn to be accountable for ourselves and move on with a positive attitude.

At the same time, our experiences can help others. That's why I hope everyone posts here--to help and to seek help. I understand feeling the need to lash out early on, but I would hope none of us are here long-term just to blame or re-open old wounds.

God gave me a gift for knowledge and a writing talent. I'm using them here to try to help people. That's it. I don't object to the LCM's right to exist, just strongly to some of it's methods. I have no personal beef with Drake or anyone, though his seemingly blasé attitude about the damage the LCM system has done does bother me.

That's my statement of "faith," if anyone is wondering.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Depends on the age and experience of the people involved. The LCM indoctrinates young people and children.

Either way that doesn't get the deceivers off the hook. They are culpable too.

On the contrary, they are far more culpable, do the math. If WL hoodwinked 20,000 people, at 10% guilt for each person he carries 2,000 times the guilt of that novice Christian you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Drake says he care about the people who have been hurt. Well, how is he demonstrating that care? By continuing to support the systems and people that hurt them? I don't get that. His care is abstract. Love is verb. It means taking action. James 2:17 says, "... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." The Bible says over and over "Seek justice for the oppressed." To me this includes the many people who have been hurt by the LCM system. So how are we to take action to help them? Speaking out on this board is one way.

Well, step 1 he is on the board, reading and participating. Step 2 he is asking to be fully persuaded according to the word of God.

Originally Posted by Igzy

The question we all should be asking is, why did so many people get hurt? The answer must be there is something wrong with the system. And it's clear to me that the problem boils down to their teaching that people have no choice but to remain in that system and follow those leaders. I cannot see how those teachings can be true, given their fruit and the fact that biblically they are questionable. So I don't believe them.

My belief is that where they went wrong is with a legalistic application of locality, conferring too much authority to extra-local workers, and the idea that their movement is a special move of God in which one must remain. All these beliefs work to hold people in the LCM. So once in the system a person who has compelling reasons to leave experiences intense inner conflicts which are psychologically, spiritually and relationally damaging. This is the source of the hurt, the same hurt Drake claims to care about.

These may be the key errors. But my question is how did they sell the error, what verses did they use to convince saints and if I return to those verses can I find the error in their interpretation.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I believe my views of apostleship are viable. Drake says they are not scriptural and contain logical fallacies. He is entitled to his opinion, but I feel no necessity to agree with him. I believe God cares about people first, and don't believe he would ever set up a system that would result in so many people getting hurt. Given that the core beliefs that support that system are biblically questionable anyway, I feel I can ignore them.

I don't have to "prove" I'm right on this board. And Drake is not the judge to say whether I've done so anyway. He can argue all day that the LCM system is sound biblically. I’ll just keep asking “Then why is it so damaging?” I don’t agree that it is biblically sound to begin with, even without the damage. But with it as far as I’m personally concerned the case is closed.

So, when I point these things out and wonder aloud about where Drake's heart is, he doesn't explain how he can live with and even defend these things, he just complains that I'm slandering him. But the other shoe never drops where he explains why he continues to defend a religious system which is damaging. He just acts like it's not damaging while claiming to care about the people who he admits were damaged. I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether that makes any sense.

If I'm misinterpreting him, Drake is free to explain himself better than he has. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to clarify things, rather than complain that I follow the few dots he's given us exactly to where they lead?

I would agree that your view is the more widely held view by Christianity. However, I don't agree with it, I have explained my view and Drake has said he agrees with me on key points. So perhaps he feels that is sufficient.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have always felt that 90% of the blame for people being deceived is on the people who were deceived.

Well this might be true if 90% of the people being deceived were biblically literate and had a strong relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. This might be true if the people being deceived had a firm foundation in the Scriptures from childhood, and a chance to develop a genuine and sincere faith. (see 2 Tim 1:5)

This is exactly why I would never, ever recommend the Local Church of Witness Lee to any young person or any newer Christian. These are the ones most susceptible to being duped into thinking that Witness Lee was a genuine apostle sent by God to "recover" the church, and to recover so many lost truths. It is now (or should be) painfully obvious to most that Lee was no such apostle.
-

[ZNPaaneah]

The Lord said that with what judgement you judge you shall be judged. Hence, we are very safe judging ourselves. Therefore I think it is important to ask yourself why you were duped. If you don't learn from the experience it will happen again. You cannot control what others do and you should not be ignorant that there are false prophets, false teachers, false brothers, and that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have always felt that 90% of the blame for people being deceived is on the people who were deceived.

Why do you think I'm on these forums? I'm still trying to figure out why I allowed myself to be deceived.

Originally Posted by Untohim

Well this might be true if 90% of the people being deceived were biblically literate and had a strong relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. This might be true if the people being deceived had a firm foundation in the Scriptures from childhood, and a chance to develop a genuine and sincere faith. (see 2 Tim 1:5)

Well you are perchance touching down on the reason I allowed myself to be deceived.

I was young when coming into the LC. Sure I had Bible lessons growing up in Southern Baptist church, and I had read the Bible a few times.

But I had never heard the Bible expounded like Lee. And as far as "a strong relationship with the Lord?" Well I didn't have that. In fact, it looked like the leaders in the LC had it (like Ron Kangas - the poser), and I was working on it, and hoping to have it. Those two things left me open to being deceived.

Why do you think they go after the young college students? They're easy to deceive.

Originally Posted by Untohim

This is exactly why I would never, ever recommend the Local Church of Witness Lee to any young person or any newer Christian. These are the ones most susceptible to being duped into thinking that Witness Lee was a genuine apostle sent by God to "recover" the church, and to recover so many lost truths.

Exactly Untohim. Thanks for helping me to understand why I was so easily deceived.