What is the boundary of the Local Church?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We can only answer what happened and what was taught, and whether it was according to God's word.

That's a wonderfully limited response... I appreciate your effort in being limited in it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have to ask WL the why.

He's dead.

But praise the Lord that we can all, if we choose to, before the living God... Enjoy the writings that come from his ministry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

But praise the Lord that we can all, if we choose to, before the living God... Enjoy the writings that come from his ministry.

OK, enjoy, but ...

Don't choke on the leaven of pride, bro.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

OK, enjoy, but ...

Don't choke on the leaven of pride, bro.

I try... But know even if I do... The Lord cares enough for me that He won't allow me to lose my salvation even if my choking kills me.

My brother... I didn't come here today to speak the things I did below... But as I started reading the comments here I felt a compelling to write what I have below... And as I was doing this I was simply trying to do the best I can before the Lord... And if there is pride, my hope is that He will save me out of it.

And know this... The things I speak here, I speak anywhere... Because I believe the Lord has given these things to me to speak... And I want to be one with and obdient to Him.

If my speaking offends you, take it before the Lord... If my speaking uplifts you, take it before the Lord.

[Cal]

Oneness is a laudable value and goal.

But the way the LCM tries to achieve it has not worked and has actually produced the opposite results.

When I hear LCMers talking about oneness, it sounds like when the Pharisees talked about Moses. Technically they had a point, but only technically. Otherwise they were off the reservation.

In the meantime, I see oneness growing in other ways.

God is going to cause us all to "arrive at the unity of the faith." Let's trust him and love each other.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When I hear LCMers talking about oneness, it sounds like when the Pharisees talked about Moses. Technically they had a point, but only technically. Otherwise they were off the reservation.

Yes, let's consider 4 ways they were outside of the boundary:

1. Arrogance. Those of us who were there know that we considered ourselves "elite" Christians, those who were absolute, not in dead Christianity, etc. You cannot enter the kingdom unless you become as a small child. Clearly a boundary.

2. We were not sensitive to saints that were getting offended. Instead we were told from elders and Witness Lee that they were "poisoned" and that you should not look "in the garbage can". In Houston I heard that every kitchen has a garbage can, who would come and visit someone and then go and look in their garbage can. The point was to not have any contact with those who left nor should we ask about them. If you offend one of these little ones it would be better if you tied a heavy stone around your neck and were flushed out of the city into the middle of the ocean. Clearly a boundary you cannot cross.

3. We were not permitted to seek out the lost sheep. We were warned to stay away from certain ones, don't see them, etc. So when someone did get offended no one was permitted to talk to them. This is directly contrary to what the Lord spoke in Matt 18. Leaving the flock to seek out the lost sheep is not outside the boundary, instead it is a defining characteristic.

4. There was no mercy. This forum is very much like those saints described in Matt 18. They saw their fellow servant who had been shown mercy by His Lord go out and abuse his fellow servants, so we were offended by this and came and told the Lord. Mercy is very clearly the boundary. No one enters this city without the Lord showing them mercy, and likewise no one stays in the city unless they will likewise show others mercy.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

4. There was no mercy. This forum is very much like those saints described in Matt 18. They saw their fellow servant who had been shown mercy by His Lord go out and abuse his fellow servants, so we were offended by this and came and told the Lord. Mercy is very clearly the boundary. No one enters this city without the Lord showing them mercy, and likewise no one stays in the city unless they will likewise show others mercy.

Mercy and grace tend to go hand in hand. In the local churches these is not that environment. Not when I was a child there and certainly not as an adult. It's not something that is taught to the young people.
Opinion I've held is there would be far less attrition in the local churches if there was mercy and grace. When there is an absence of mercy and grace, one doesn't feel welcome if you have contrasting point of view.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Steel, unfortunately it is only the heartless and the bullies who speak this way. This is how they "wash their hands" of any responsibility.

Actually... By my very passionate consideration of the things people are speaking on threads like these, I know that I am neither "...heartless..." or a bully. . . . And I have in no way "...washed..." my hands of any responsibility to you or anyone else I encounter her, or anywhere else... As the Lord leads.

Ohio... Since beginning to participate on the forums of this website I have had its members in my heart, and brought you all before the Lord on many occassions. . . . And when I encounter erroneous speaking such as in your above quoted speaking... I am simply encouraged even more to bring the person speaking this error before the Lord.

And bringing a person or matter before the Lord is the best way to exercise my caring of the responsibilty I have towards this person or matter… Which, BTW... Is exactly what I was exhorting you to do regarding any interaction with me.

Always... Always... Bring all things we encounter... Before the Lord. . . . And perhaps you shouldn't think to assume that I am insincere with my speaking.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Either you learned these bad habits within the LC, or you joined them because of similarity.

And what would be your excuse for your own poor speaking?

See, Ohio... It seems that, for you... All that you are able to do is try and find a way to twist what someone says into something that allows you to speak in a negative way toward all things you deem as being "...within the LC...".

Thankfully though, we can know from scripture that... "The prayer of a righteous man avails much in its working."

Originally Posted by Ohio

While I was inside the LC fold, all of the offenses flowed "down hill" in their well established hierarchy.

Well... Thankfully... I don't see myself as being "...inside the LC fold..."... I know that I am in Christ Jesus... And that He is in me… And in these two realities is the enjoyment of being in His fold.

But perhaps, your thinking you were "...inside the LC fold..." was the error the Lord had to bring you out of... And is the error the Lord is still bringing you out of.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Members had no recourse but to "take it before the Lord," because if one opened his mouth, it only got worse for him.

My brother... Scripture tells us that the Lord "...opened His mouth..."... Regardless of the consequences... And did so because He trusted who He was/is in the Father, and trusted the leading of the Spirit.

And scripture also tells us that we should have the mind of Christ (Phil. 2:5)... Do you believe what scripture tells us?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having left the LC structures, I then realized that I have a voice on behalf of others.

Yeh... No... Only the Lord has a voice on behalf of others... And He doesn't speak the error I've seen you speak on these threads.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

If my speaking offends you, take it before the Lord... If my speaking uplifts you, take it before the Lord.

Brother Steel, unfortunately it is only the heartless and the bullies who speak this way. This is how they "wash their hands" of any responsibility. Either you learned these bad habits within the LC, or you joined them because of similarity.

While I was inside the LC fold, all of the offenses flowed "down hill" in their well established hierarchy. Members had no recourse but to "take it before the Lord," because if one opened his mouth, it only got worse for him. Having left the LC structures, I then realized that I have a voice on behalf of others.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Steel, unfortunately it is only the heartless and the bullies who speak this way. This is how they "wash their hands" of any responsibility. Either you learned these bad habits within the LC, or you joined them because of similarity.

While I was inside the LC fold, all of the offenses flowed "down hill" in their well established hierarchy. Members had no recourse but to "take it before the Lord," because if one opened his mouth, it only got worse for him. Having left the LC structures, I then realized that I have a voice on behalf of others.

Great point. I also remember being taught that this was part of taking the cross and if something offended you then that was an expression of the flesh, self, old man, etc. But it is completely different in Matt 18, the onus on an offense is on those that stumble the little ones, not on the little ones for being "in their mind".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Great point. I also remember being taught that this was part of taking the cross and if something offended you then that was an expression of the flesh, self, old man, etc. But it is completely different in Matt 18, the onus on an offense is on those that stumble the little ones, not on the little ones for being "in their mind".

Another point we don't often mention in the Matt 18 story is the benefits of "taking another brother with you." Oftentimes a perceived offense can almost vanish before our eyes once we begin rehearsing the matter to another brother. Speaking the event "out loud" to one another helps to deliver us from merely emotional bias and help us to be objective towards ourselves. Candid fellowship with one another can remove these emotional "mountains." Healthy married couples learn this regularly.

On the other hand, re-enactment of offensive events with another brother or sister can also highlight serious matters missed privately. With such a sounding board, with two gathered in His name, the Lord can step in to further enlighten the situation.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Another point we don't often mention in the Matt 18 story is the benefits of "taking another brother with you." Oftentimes a perceived offense can almost vanish before our eyes once we begin rehearsing the matter to another brother. Speaking the event "out loud" to one another helps to deliver us from merely emotional bias and help us to be objective towards ourselves. Candid fellowship with one another can remove these emotional "mountains." Healthy married couples learn this regularly.

Members & lurkers, those who haven't caught on my primary purpose on this forum is not the orthodoxy, but the orthopraxy of the local churches.
Quite often whether it's perceived or actual offenses, part of the emotional mountains that exist is "I don't want to hear about it" or so and so "has to get right with the brothers".
If we're scriptural Matthew 18 should be a way for there to be candid fellowship in resolving issues.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But it is completely different in Matt 18, the onus on an offense is on those that stumble the little ones, not on the little ones for being "in their mind".

So the Lord Jesus was responsible for stumbling all those who scripture tells us were offended by Him as He lived out His 32+ years on this earth?

Surely not, right?

When you speak truth/reality/life and doing so causes the person hearing/reading it to become offended... What then... Should truth/reality/life not be spoken... Because of the opportunity doing so gives to others to become offended in themselves?

Matthew 18:6... "And whoever stumbles one of these little ones who believe into Me, it is more profitable for him that a great millstone be hung around his neck and he be drowned in the open sea."

What is the above scripture verse telling us?

First... The context is those who the Lord has called to Himself... Meaning, those coming to Him as little children (humble, having no malice/poor agenda towards others).

The Lord then adds this... "Truly I say to you, Unless you turn and become like little children, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens."

Above we have a caveat to the initial context... And then the Lord continues... "And whoever receives one such little child because of My name, receives Me;..."

And there it is... Is the one who claims to be offended by the speaking of another... Doing so as "...such a little child...", or are they doing so in the vanity of the natural human adulthood.

Speaking truth/reality/life won't stumble a "...child..." who has come to the Lord... But speaking truth/reality/life will certainly cause the one who is in the vanity of the natural human adulthood to become offended.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Steel

So the Lord Jesus was responsible for stumbling all those who scripture tells us were offended by Him as He lived out His 32+ years on this earth?

Surely not, right?

Surely. Did you read Matt 18? There is no reference in that chapter to those who were offended by the Lord's speaking. Obviously there are different situations. If you are having trouble distinguishing between the two then bring up the verse that is giving you trouble.

Originally Posted by Steel

When you speak truth/reality/life and doing so causes the person hearing/reading it to become offended... What then... Should truth/reality/life not be spoken... Because of the opportunity doing so gives to others to become offended in themselves?

Obviously not part of the context of Matt 18. But let's suppose we did have a new one offended by something that was spoken in the meeting. They should go privately to the one who spoke and talk to them. But since they are a new one, a "little brother" then it may be they will simply be stumbled and leave. In that case you should seek them out to fellowship. In either case we should now be having a discussion with this saint about the offense. It may be they were offended by the truth. Perhaps if we "speak the truth in love" that will restore the situation. Perhaps even after the fellowship they are still offended. In that case they should take one or two more that they do respect, explain to them their offense and perhaps those two or three can explain it to this one. Ohio referred to this as one of the safeguards from this chapter.

Your conclusion that truth should not be spoken lest we offend is not a balanced interpretation of scripture but rather taking a word in Matt 18 out of context, applying it to a completely different context. I think this is what Peter referred to as those who twist what the scripture says.