What is the boundary of the Local Church?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

If my speaking offends you, take it before the Lord... If my speaking uplifts you, take it before the Lord.

Brother Steel, unfortunately it is only the heartless and the bullies who speak this way. This is how they "wash their hands" of any responsibility. Either you learned these bad habits within the LC, or you joined them because of similarity.

While I was inside the LC fold, all of the offenses flowed "down hill" in their well established hierarchy. Members had no recourse but to "take it before the Lord," because if one opened his mouth, it only got worse for him. Having left the LC structures, I then realized that I have a voice on behalf of others.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Steel, unfortunately it is only the heartless and the bullies who speak this way. This is how they "wash their hands" of any responsibility. Either you learned these bad habits within the LC, or you joined them because of similarity.

While I was inside the LC fold, all of the offenses flowed "down hill" in their well established hierarchy. Members had no recourse but to "take it before the Lord," because if one opened his mouth, it only got worse for him. Having left the LC structures, I then realized that I have a voice on behalf of others.

Great point. I also remember being taught that this was part of taking the cross and if something offended you then that was an expression of the flesh, self, old man, etc. But it is completely different in Matt 18, the onus on an offense is on those that stumble the little ones, not on the little ones for being "in their mind".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Great point. I also remember being taught that this was part of taking the cross and if something offended you then that was an expression of the flesh, self, old man, etc. But it is completely different in Matt 18, the onus on an offense is on those that stumble the little ones, not on the little ones for being "in their mind".

Another point we don't often mention in the Matt 18 story is the benefits of "taking another brother with you." Oftentimes a perceived offense can almost vanish before our eyes once we begin rehearsing the matter to another brother. Speaking the event "out loud" to one another helps to deliver us from merely emotional bias and help us to be objective towards ourselves. Candid fellowship with one another can remove these emotional "mountains." Healthy married couples learn this regularly.

On the other hand, re-enactment of offensive events with another brother or sister can also highlight serious matters missed privately. With such a sounding board, with two gathered in His name, the Lord can step in to further enlighten the situation.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Another point we don't often mention in the Matt 18 story is the benefits of "taking another brother with you." Oftentimes a perceived offense can almost vanish before our eyes once we begin rehearsing the matter to another brother. Speaking the event "out loud" to one another helps to deliver us from merely emotional bias and help us to be objective towards ourselves. Candid fellowship with one another can remove these emotional "mountains." Healthy married couples learn this regularly.

Members & lurkers, those who haven't caught on my primary purpose on this forum is not the orthodoxy, but the orthopraxy of the local churches.
Quite often whether it's perceived or actual offenses, part of the emotional mountains that exist is "I don't want to hear about it" or so and so "has to get right with the brothers".
If we're scriptural Matthew 18 should be a way for there to be candid fellowship in resolving issues.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But it is completely different in Matt 18, the onus on an offense is on those that stumble the little ones, not on the little ones for being "in their mind".

So the Lord Jesus was responsible for stumbling all those who scripture tells us were offended by Him as He lived out His 32+ years on this earth?

Surely not, right?

When you speak truth/reality/life and doing so causes the person hearing/reading it to become offended... What then... Should truth/reality/life not be spoken... Because of the opportunity doing so gives to others to become offended in themselves?

Matthew 18:6... "And whoever stumbles one of these little ones who believe into Me, it is more profitable for him that a great millstone be hung around his neck and he be drowned in the open sea."

What is the above scripture verse telling us?

First... The context is those who the Lord has called to Himself... Meaning, those coming to Him as little children (humble, having no malice/poor agenda towards others).

The Lord then adds this... "Truly I say to you, Unless you turn and become like little children, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens."

Above we have a caveat to the initial context... And then the Lord continues... "And whoever receives one such little child because of My name, receives Me;..."

And there it is... Is the one who claims to be offended by the speaking of another... Doing so as "...such a little child...", or are they doing so in the vanity of the natural human adulthood.

Speaking truth/reality/life won't stumble a "...child..." who has come to the Lord... But speaking truth/reality/life will certainly cause the one who is in the vanity of the natural human adulthood to become offended.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Steel

So the Lord Jesus was responsible for stumbling all those who scripture tells us were offended by Him as He lived out His 32+ years on this earth?

Surely not, right?

Surely. Did you read Matt 18? There is no reference in that chapter to those who were offended by the Lord's speaking. Obviously there are different situations. If you are having trouble distinguishing between the two then bring up the verse that is giving you trouble.

Originally Posted by Steel

When you speak truth/reality/life and doing so causes the person hearing/reading it to become offended... What then... Should truth/reality/life not be spoken... Because of the opportunity doing so gives to others to become offended in themselves?

Obviously not part of the context of Matt 18. But let's suppose we did have a new one offended by something that was spoken in the meeting. They should go privately to the one who spoke and talk to them. But since they are a new one, a "little brother" then it may be they will simply be stumbled and leave. In that case you should seek them out to fellowship. In either case we should now be having a discussion with this saint about the offense. It may be they were offended by the truth. Perhaps if we "speak the truth in love" that will restore the situation. Perhaps even after the fellowship they are still offended. In that case they should take one or two more that they do respect, explain to them their offense and perhaps those two or three can explain it to this one. Ohio referred to this as one of the safeguards from this chapter.

Your conclusion that truth should not be spoken lest we offend is not a balanced interpretation of scripture but rather taking a word in Matt 18 out of context, applying it to a completely different context. I think this is what Peter referred to as those who twist what the scripture says.

[ZNPaaneah]

Steel has referred to this verse concerning not offending the "little one" in Matt 18:

Matt 15 Then there come to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God said, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is given to God; 6 he shall not honor his father. And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people honoreth me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain do they worship me,
Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

It provides a powerful contrast. In Matt 18 we are told to become like little children otherwise we cannot enter the kingdom. In Matt 15 we have Scribes and Pharisees creating "traditions of the elders" and making these laws that you are not permitted to transgress. This is not to "become as a little child" but rather to become as a tyrant or despot.

In both chapters it talks about these ones being offended. Why were the Pharisees offended? Because the Lord exposed their hypocrisy in short circuiting the ten commandments so that they could collect more money.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It provides a powerful contrast. In Matt 18 we are told to become like little children otherwise we cannot enter the kingdom. In Matt 15 we have Scribes and Pharisees creating "traditions of the elders" and making these laws that you are not permitted to transgress. This is not to "become as a little child" but rather to become as a tyrant or despot.

Sure... Which all humans are, to one degree or another, in our fallen natural man... Which, BTW, God chose in His infinte wisdom to leave us with.

Do you not know that all that separates any of us from becoming "...as a tyrant or despot..." is God's grace... And that includes you, ZNPaaneah.

The question is... Knowing that you being is as a result of God's grace... What does scripture tell us regarding how this grace is expressed in your daily living and being... Towards yourself, and towards others?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In both chapters it talks about these ones being offended. Why were the Pharisees offended? Because the Lord exposed their hypocrisy in short circuiting the ten commandments so that they could collect more money.

No, ZNPaaneah... The Pharisees were offended because they were without Christ.

As is the reason Peter, anyone else in scripture became offended.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Surely. Did you read Matt 18? There is no reference in that chapter to those who were offended by the Lord's speaking. Obviously there are different situations. If you are having trouble distinguishing between the two then bring up the verse that is giving you trouble.

So are you saying that the Lord caused others to become offended?... That the Lord was the cause of their becoming offended?

And I didn't speak about the Lord causing anyone to be offended in reference to the scripture from Matthew... But in reference to what you said that I quoted above my reference to the Lord causing anyone to be offended.

Go back and read it again... And if you are having trouble understanding my point let me know and I will try and explain it some more to you.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Obviously not part of the context of Matt 18. But let's suppose we did have a new one offended by something that was spoken in the meeting. They should go privately to the one who spoke and talk to them. But since they are a new one, a "little brother" then it may be they will simply be stumbled and leave. In that case you should seek them out to fellowship.

But how would you know to seek them out if they didn't tell you they were offended?

Two weekends ago I spoke something in a meeting that caused an older member to become offended. I didn't know, but as my wife and I were getting into our car to leave this brother was walking by and I said "Amen brother" and he just scowled at me... So I pressed... And said even louder, "Amen brother."

He continued walking as if he didn't hear me but then stopped and turn around and came back to me. He looked at me and said in an offended way that I had caused confusion because after he had spoken telling a young one that he had brought that consecration only requires saying "Lord Jesus", I then got up and said "I will tell you what consecration is... It is knowing God, and knowing who God is in our lives."

My speaking this had offended him because he thought it would confuse the young person he had brought to the meetings.

I just said "Amen brother, the Lord knows" and left it at that.

I fully believe that the Lord is able to work out all things ZNPaaneah, if we simply trust in Him to do so.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In either case we should now be having a discussion with this saint about the offense. It may be they were offended by the truth. Perhaps if we "speak the truth in love" that will restore the situation. Perhaps even after the fellowship they are still offended. In that case they should take one or two more that they do respect, explain to them their offense and perhaps those two or three can explain it to this one. Ohio referred to this as one of the safeguards from this chapter.

Okay.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Your conclusion that truth should not be spoken lest we offend is not a balanced interpretation of scripture but rather taking a word in Matt 18 out of context, applying it to a completely different context. I think this is what Peter referred to as those who twist what the scripture says.

Things is... I didn't conclude that... I simply put it forward as a contrast to what I fully believe we should at all times do... Which is speak the truth in love... Just as scripture tells us to do.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

Two weekends ago I spoke something in a meeting that caused an older member to become offended. I didn't know, but as my wife and I were getting into our car to leave this brother was walking by and I said "Amen brother" and he just scowled at me... So I pressed... And said even louder, "Amen brother."

He continued walking as if he didn't hear me but then stopped and turn around and came back to me. He looked at me and said in an offended way that I had caused confusion because after he had spoken telling a young one that he had brought that consecration only requires saying "Lord Jesus", I then got up and said "I will tell you what consecration is... It is knowing God, and knowing who God is in our lives."

That story is so sad Steel, although I must say not surprising in the least. Anyone who has spent time in the LSM churches know that that is what happens if you don't stick to the script of Witness Lee.

In the churches of Lee, Lee will be preached.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

That story is so sad Steel,...

No my brother... It's not sad... Rejoice... And again I say rejoice.

Was it sad that Isaiah, upon the Lord shining on him from His throne (Isaiah 6), saw his own poor condition?

Or was it a wonderful expression of the grace pof God unto Isaiah's salvation?

If you are familiar with the next few scripture verses you will know it is the second.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...although I must say not surprising in the least.

Who cares what you think... Care for what the Lord thinks.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Anyone who has spent time in the LSM churches know that that is what happens if you don't stick to the script of Witness Lee.

If you were wise you would spend no time considering "...what happens if you don't stick to the script of Witness Lee..."... And all your time considering what happens if you don't stick to the Lord's script.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

In the churches of Lee, Lee will be preached.

Until he isn't... Which will be according to God's will... Right... Isn't that what scripture tells us... That it is God who is in control of all things.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Steel

So are you saying that the Lord caused others to become offended?... That the Lord was the cause of their becoming offended?

I suppose there are different interpretations, but the way I read this passage in Matthew 15, when you proclaim that Jesus is Lord it is going to step on the toes of those that had presumed they were Lord, whether they be religious dictators, political ones, etc.

Originally Posted by Steel

But how would you know to seek them out if they didn't tell you they were offended?

Hence the analogy of seeking a lost sheep. They don't tell you they are leaving, you simply realize they are not there and now go looking for them.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I suppose there are different interpretations, but the way I read this passage in Matthew 15, when you proclaim that Jesus is Lord it is going to step on the toes of those that had presumed they were Lord, whether they be religious dictators, political ones, etc.

There's only one truth that scripture reveals.

But yes... When truth is spoken the vain feelings of natural man are hurt.

But as I said... Speaking truth is not the cause of this hurt... The cause of this hurt is man's vanity.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Hence the analogy of seeking a lost sheep. They don't tell you they are leaving, you simply realize they are not there and now go looking for them.

Really... "...you simply realize..."

So we have no need of the Lord's shining to reveal a problem then?