Signs of Decline in LSMs Recovery - Tomes

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by JJ

Kumbaya, you are spot on with this critique of FTT and discussion about marriage conformance pressure.

Simply said it’s disgusting.

One of the best things we can do is warn people about it on this forum.

Thanks for contributing your firsthand view of these things.

Thanks, I question getting so detailed in my responses but this is not a small thing to me. It deeply bothers me. I had to take a few days off from looking at this site because I'm still in the "accepting" phase of letting go of trying to "convince" family members and friends. I'm just trying to tell myself, "Jesus, I trust you."

That's it. That's all I can do right now. I hope anything I wrote helps anyone else (if not my own family) because everything I write is what I WANT to say to them, but there's a wall and I don't get far.

I feel like if people can just learn about thought reform and spiritual abuse practices- that's ALL it takes. Just awareness about what is and isn't right in relationships will give you the perspective where God can lead you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I feel like if people can just learn about thought reform and spiritual abuse practices- that's ALL it takes. Just awareness about what is and isn't right in relationships will give you the perspective where God can lead you.

Absolutely. In the thought-world of the LSM-affiliated lc, they get only one perspective. They are afraid to be exposed to any other as it might shatter the veils. What kind of sick-bed faith is that? Where is the fresh air? Where is the light? The transparency?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by aron

Absolutely. In the thought-world of the LSM-affiliated lc, they get only one perspective. They are afraid to be exposed to any other as it might shatter the veils. What kind of sick-bed faith is that? Where is the fresh air? Where is the light? The transparency?

This is hitting home. I was talking to someone today (former family in LC) about this. They really are afraid to be exposed to any other idea. I believe they 100% believe they're right, but the FEAR of being "poisoned" is real.

In Scientology, they call it being a "suppressive" person when you speak out against scientology. Of course, they call all criminals suppressive people too- so when you're speaking out against scientology in general and trying to warn family members against the harmful practices of the group- you're then labeled as "suppressive" and lumped in the same group as criminals.

Obviously, I don't think the LC is that extreme but the mindset is there on a smaller scale. Just the fact that this family member KNOWS I have a lot to say, other family too, and this family member in the LC AVOIDS discussing it with me says a lot. I've reached out before and was shut down.

If you really think about it, in a normal situation where thought reform isn't involved....if you knew a family member was concerned about a decision you were making, wouldn't it be ok approach them and reassure them, and wouldn't it be the RIGHT thing to do when concerned about a family member/friend to approach them about a decision they were making that you thought could be harmful to them? Does that act have to mean that you're attacking them/their character/and that you're "poison" that they shouldn't listen to?

No, that's what happens with communication in the US VS. THEM mindset. Even though we're both Christians, they've been taught to believe the VISION OF THE AGE. Therefore, they believe that they are in the light- others who don't agree are in the dark. Therefore, they will love you- but don't question their VISION because that's their whole identity because they're so wrapped up in this way of thinking. To question it, is POISON, not light. To doubt it would be too much of a programmed response of guilt/shame that they would go through even doubting it- so they don't hear you. Everything you say just sounds crazy to them. You slowly do become the enemy bc in their eyes, you're opposing the VISION of the AGE. The ENTIRE reason for EXISTING and the WAY to BRING THE LORD BACK. Of course, you're now poison.

Even if you're a Christian.

How is this the body of Christ??

In REALITY, when you care and love someone- you're not "suppressive" or "poison" to tell them about something that concerns you that they're doing. As long as its done with love, its NORMAL to do that.

I get that we all avoid things, but this family member is totally avoiding the issue with me and it just is this huge "elephant in the room" situation and it's sad. Our connection isn't there anymore. It hurts bc I know she sees me as "poisonous" now. That's why the communication isn't there. I feel this because in the past, I thought the same thing about people who spoke out against the church. I've also heard it described to me that way my whole life. It's US VS. the WORLD. You're in the dark or you're in the LIGHT. The people in the LC are convinced that they are the Christians who are IN THE LIGHT and other's are blind. I thought this my entire childhood. Even if I didn't like the LC practices as a young person, that idea was ingrained in me. I knew though that I wasn't going to be able to fit in to that lifestyle and keep up with those standards, I'm too much of an individualistic person- so the guilt and shame set in.

"Fit in eventually or get out" - that should be the LC's motto.

Fear is a good control tactic. I've said it before but it wasn't until years after I stopped meeting with the church that I looked anything up online.

What was I so afraid of? I was afraid subconsciously of being confronted with information that would "ruin" my outlook and make me uncomfortable. It's so much easier to just go with the flow.

I really feel like people in the LC think the boogeyman is going to jump out of the computer and poison their minds if they dared to look anything up for themselves. I wouldn't admit it to myself then, but I was too scared I would read something that would "change" me. What happened to being able to defend your beliefs?? I mean, what was I thinking?? It's so interesting to think back on my mindset then. This is why I truly believe thought reform is strongly in play. I would like to say that my whole life, I could defend my beliefs and faith to some extent to someone either outside the LC or an unbeliever. But I can't say that bc I never read or knew anything about the group I met with, other than what was told to me by the elders.

Much easier to just ask an elder and get their version of events. That's satisfying enough apparently.

I asked this family member to read some things and I don't think she did. She just told me she was actually already aware of the situation and told me that her prayer for me was to spend as much time reading the Bible as I did looking up this stuff.

Wow. Nevermind the fact that the only reason I did spend so much time was because it was all too unbelievable and I was HOPING to prove it all wrong. I had to spend that much time to prove to myself that I wasn't totally nuts for seeing this info and starting to accept the reality of the situation. It totally messes with your head- I needed to KNOW what I was reading wasn't just "lies." I sent her some links and I don't know but I doubt she read them. Her response was basically that she already "knew" about some of the situations I wanted her to read, but I would bet she got one side of the story. I've truly tried to read both, I've read from the "afaithfulword" site and it only CONFIRMED my suspicions that all these things really happened and that really bad practices were in play! The second link on their page is "QUARANTINE" for goodness sakes! But, she just said though that "bad things" have happened with former elders and that as a whole, everything wasn't like that. I heard the same thing when I was in. She truly does not see that this isn't healthy and her response only confirmed that thought reform is going on. Her response was very PC LC lingo-ish and included the words "amidst" and basically, followed the exact pattern I've read about happening when confronting people who've been in thought reform. When confronted they dismiss, admonish, then shame. That is exactly what happened when I tried to confront her with these issues - I got "shamed" that I was spending too much time looking into these things instead of being in the Word. As if, the events I was talking about were so crazy that they didn't even warrant being looked into. According to her, I should just blindly follow the LC/LSM, read my Bible, and never question that maybe these people are aren't following Godly practices and maybe they're not on the right track. That was the response I got though and I don't think she sees anything wrong with it. I don't think she's capable of seeing it or with the fact that our relationship has suffered due to this issue and that by itself is a red flag. I guess, to her, it's better that our relationship is severed than to be "poisoned."

It's all hurtful. All these things are things I wish I could say to her. But I can't- so posting them anonymously and hopefully someone else can hear them.

I know our family isn't the only one who has/is/will go through this.

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

This is hitting home. I was talking to someone today (former family in LC) about this. They really are afraid to be exposed to any other idea. I believe they 100% believe they're right, but the FEAR of being "poisoned" is real.

One way to deal with the fear and resistance is to meet people where they’re at. Jesus met the Samaritan woman at mid-day, at the well, and didn’t ask her to go to Jerusalem or the holy mountain. So if you want to talk to them, do it on their terms. Talk about their ministry today, about their admitted history in their own books, about the Bible that they use. Make them confront their own illogic.

Example:

Joe: “Hi cousin Mary. Nice to see you. How are you today?”

Mary: “Good, Joe. What’s going on?”

J: “Sorry if I was a bit confrontational last week. I’ve been thinking and I’m grateful to have been brought up in the Christian faith, and exposed to the Bible, and in a loving and stable environment. I have a lot to be thankful for.”

M: “Oh, good.”

J: “Yes; and actually, I was reading the Recovery Version the other day. I was wondering why “You will not let my flesh see corruption” in Psalm 16 was deemed prophetically indicative of Christ, while “You rescued me because You delighted in me” in Psalm 18 was deemed vain human concept. Both were written by David, a sinful human being. Yet in one the sin of the psalm-writer was accepted, while in the second it supposedly disqualified the validity of the statement? What do you think about this?”

Or,

J: “You know, Mary, I noticed in the footnotes that some passages were called “natural concepts” because the psalm-writer expressed ill feeling toward others, and wished them harm. Witness Lee said in the footnote that the NT principle is love, tolerance, forbearance, forgiveness. Yet in other places, the OT protagonist gets a free pass to be violent: David slaying Goliath, or Samuel killing Agag, etc. Or a verse like Psalm 45:5, inside a discourse Lee says is on Christ, gets ignored: "Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king’s enemies. . ." Why do you think OT violence is condemned in some places by Lee, but ignored or encouraged in others?”

Or,

J: “I was thinking about Watchman Nee, how he had a library of 3,000 books that he used for spiritual nourishment. How do you think that squares with the current “One Publication” idea? Do you really think that each of those 3,000 books was written by a single dominant minister of each era? Or were there multiple people putting out their ideas simultaneously, and Nee was able to profit from all of them? What do you think about this?”

Or,

J: “I was reading the biography of Watchman Nee by Witness Lee. In it, Lee shows how Nee was helped by Madame Guyon, on the inner life, and how Nee's “Spiritual Man” was heavily indebted to Jessie Penn-Lewis’ “War on the Saints”, and how Mary McDonough’s “Three Parts of Man” influenced his thinking (and later, Lee’s). Plus Nee credited Emily Fishbacher on the charismatic experience. Not to mention ME Barber teaching him all those years! (And Dora Yu, Peace Wang, Ruth Lee &c). Now, I'm wondering: if the ministries of all these women were obviously so instrumental in Nee’s spiritual development, why does the 'recovery' church he founded not allow women to teach? It seems that he was either illegitimately instructed by women, or his 'recovery' group is illegitimately suppressing valid and valuable women's ministries today. I don't see how one can simultaneously have it both ways here. What do you think?”

We can meet them where they are, on their own ideological turf, and ask them to face the apparent contradictions inherent in their thought-worlds. Now, Mary may have a good answer. Maybe Joe will learn something! Or she may say, “I dunno, let me ask an elder that question.” Or, “I don’t care. Why are you being so negative?”

But either way, Joe has asked her to think, which is always a good thing. People don’t like illogic. They don’t want incoherence: to simultaneously face two contradictory positions. If someone holds up the contradiction, and lets them face it, then the wheels are set in motion.

And my examples were just representative samples; one may find other contradictions without too much work. Incoherent thought abounds in this group - it's a direct result of the isolation. LC people typically avoid discomfort caused by dissociation by "compartmentalizing" and hiding the incoherence - make them face it. They possess a functional mind, given to them by God - open all the compartments, let the light in, and make them use it. They'll sort it out, just like you and I have. No need to be "negative" - just be open.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

In REALITY, when you care and love someone- you're not "suppressive" or "poison" to tell them about something that concerns you that they're doing. As long as its done with love, its NORMAL to do that..

Amen.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by aron

J: “I was reading the biography of Watchman Nee by Witness Lee. In it, Lee shows how Nee was helped by Madame Guyon, on the inner life, and how Nee's “Spiritual Man” was heavily indebted to Jessie Penn-Lewis’ “War on the Saints”, and how Mary McDonough’s “Three Parts of Man” influenced his thinking (and later, Lee’s). Plus Nee credited Emily Fishbacher on the charismatic experience. Not to mention ME Barber teaching him all those years! (And Dora Yu, Peace Wang, Ruth Lee &c). Now, I'm wondering: if the ministries of all these women were obviously so instrumental in Nee’s spiritual development, why does the 'recovery' church he founded not allow women to teach? It seems that he was either illegitimately instructed by women, or his 'recovery' group is illegitimately suppressing valid and valuable women's ministries today. I don't see how one can simultaneously have it both ways here. What do you think?”

You learn something new every day!! Thank you-this example especially. I'm going to read about it and hope to one day (God willing) use an example like this if the situation comes up. I used to think of the LC like a two sided coin of bad practices (one side) and spiritual abuse (on the other)...

Now I'm seeing it more like a multi-sided dice of all kinds of misleading deceptions.

These concepts were clearly not WN or WL's alone. But even if they were, they are just theories, correct?

I'm not sure what the "lingo" is with Biblical doctrine- so I'm just comparing to scientific equivalents....

The fact that WN or WL claims to KNOW the truth about all the debated doctrines of the Bible is a huge red flag for me.

I would love to find a group that teaches the possible THEORIES with certain issues-aside from the main issues of the faith. A group that teaches the Biblical interpretations as a whole, then lets you decide for yourself. That's what we all deserve to have. It seems so simple, but its not!

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

The fact that WN or WL claims to KNOW the truth about all the debated doctrines of the Bible is a huge red flag for me.

This should be a big red flag for anyone. "Here we have ended our search", we sang. But Jesus taught us to seek.He said, "Blessed are those who seek". . . The journey is not over.

WN & WL claimed to have it all figured out. This is hubris and delusion. The journey is not over.

This stuff is straight from Pilgrims Progress. Amazing how many got fooled, including myself.

[JJ]

We used to sing a song that said “the Lord hath yet more light and truth to break forth from His word” in my early days in TLR. I never heard that sung in my later days. I haven’t been able to find that song when I’ve searched for it in recent years. I’d love to get a link to it again.

I like what was said about “red flag” on this thread.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Fear is a good control tactic. I've said it before but it wasn't until years after I stopped meeting with the church that I looked anything up online.

What was I so afraid of? I was afraid subconsciously of being confronted with information that would "ruin" my outlook and make me uncomfortable. It's so much easier to just go with the flow.

I really feel like people in the LC think the boogeyman is going to jump out of the computer and poison their minds if they dared to look anything up for themselves. I wouldn't admit it to myself then, but I was too scared I would read something that would "change" me. What happened to being able to defend your beliefs?? I mean, what was I thinking?? It's so interesting to think back on my mindset then. This is why I truly believe thought reform is strongly in play. I would like to say that my whole life, I could defend my beliefs and faith to some extent to someone either outside the LC or an unbeliever. But I can't say that bc I never read or knew anything about the group I met with, other than what was told to me by the elders.

Fear goes hand-in-hand with control. It's interesting to note that when the LC makes reference to groups, individuals, or material that is not pro-LC, they will use generic terminology such as negative ones, negative speaking, etc. They won’t qualify what is ‘negative’ about it. Even in the instances where they do get more specific (such as literature produced by the DCP), the defense of LC positions or teachings always comes from an ‘official’ source, rather than it being represented as something that any member could defend.

For years, I was completely aware that there are many people out there who weren’t supportive of the LC. It didn’t concern me much, and I didn’t really want to know anything about it. I swallowed anything that I was told - they had complete control on the information that was available to us. Ironically, what eventually changed, is that it became more relevant to me to understand why outsiders weren’t interested in the LC. In the area I’m from, some of the local elders and Andrew Yu started making a push to re-attempt implementing WL’s “vital groups.” In particular, there was a big emphasis on gaining “new ones.”

Of course, such a push failed miserably, however, it left a single lingering question in my mind – why are people so resistant to the LC? That kind of question could normally be ignored, if there were no particular pressure to be trying to recruit new members, but the question became an important consideration since I didn’t want to fail at what the elders were expecting us to do.

I was disappointed when I noticed that the elders made no attempt to equip us to address people’s concerns about the LC. I then became more interested in finding out for myself what was out there on the internet. The information didn’t change my mind overnight, but what eventually did change my mind was when I realized how much that is out there that has gone unaddressed by the LC and its leaders. It could be said the facts were what ‘poisoned’ me. I had lived in fear of information. The same information that the LC was incapable of addressing. Once I realized that the LC had no interest in addressing the concerns and information that really mattered, it made such information all the more meaningful.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Fear goes hand-in-hand with control. It's interesting to note that when the LC makes reference to groups, individuals, or material that is not pro-LC, they will use generic terminology such as negative ones, negative speaking, etc. They won’t qualify what is ‘negative’ about it. Even in the instances where they do get more specific (such as literature produced by the DCP), the defense of LC positions or teachings always comes from an ‘official’ source, rather than it being represented as something that any member could defend.

So true, I never thought about it like that. I wonder if even HALF the people in the locality I grew up in even know about the DCP- seriously!!!

The afaithfulword page isn't linked to the local church or LSM page- is it?

I may be wrong- but it seems like their "defense" of their practices is purposefully "NOT LINKED" to anything regarding "the local church," unless you painstakingly search for it.

I'm sure the more members know, the more questions there would be and more likely the facade would come crashing down.

You're right, I've only been told about the "negative ones" and "lies."

After I made some statements about my concerns to an elder, it was "believe what you want to believe. Obviously you've been reading some lies on the internet."

I wish I was kidding. He did attempt to give an explanation to my concerns but not in a way that answered my questions or really addressed them. It was almost too hard to read bc it was dismissing as a whole and this was someone who was/is close to my family.

I'm not blaming him- I fully believe he believes he's doing the right thing. It's just easier to dismiss and see someone as a "lost sheep."

I guess that's me! To them, at least! I'm still in the accepting phase of this, obviously...I'm getting better but I'd be lying if I said it didn't still make me really sad. Less tears now at least!

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I was disappointed when I noticed that the elders made no attempt to equip us to address people’s concerns about the LC. I then became more interested in finding out for myself what was out there on the internet. The information didn’t change my mind overnight, but what eventually did change my mind was when I realized how much that is out there that has gone unaddressed by the LC and its leaders. It could be said the facts were what ‘poisoned’ me. I had lived in fear of information. The same information that the LC was incapable of addressing. Once I realized that the LC had no interest in addressing the concerns and information that really mattered, it made such information all the more meaningful.

These are exactly my feelings. NO ONE wants to talk about it, if you do- you're "difficult".

"Freedom, just love the Lord and your place in the body. Praise the Lord for the body and the divine order!"

Ok, I'm being sarcastic here... but really- that kind of passive aggressive dumbing down power move is EXACTLY what happens. And it's too much- gotta call it out when I see it now. Hopefully, people reading will RECOGNIZE when it's being done to them.

You're using someone's relationship with the Lord and their place in the body of Christ AGAINST them- dismissing and subliminally shaming them, in order to get a certain desired behavior. It's called spiritual abuse. It's manipulative and a sin in the body of Christ. I saw it and see it all the time.

I'm by no means perfect and have a lot to account for before the Lord, but it doesn't take a Dr. to recognize someone with a broken arm when a bone is sticking out of their skin. It also doesn't take going to a seminary or a degree in Biblical studies to see the LC is a breeding ground for spiritual abuse with their practices.

If I can help one person see, then writing all this is worth it. Even if it doesn't help anyone, I appreciate the support so much!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Ok, I'm being sarcastic here... but really- that kind of passive aggressive dumbing down power move is EXACTLY what happens. And it's too much- gotta call it out when I see it now. Hopefully, people reading will RECOGNIZE when it's being done to them.

You're using someone's relationship with the Lord and their place in the body of Christ AGAINST them- dismissing and subliminally shaming them, in order to get a certain desired behavior. It's called spiritual abuse. It's manipulative and a sin in the body of Christ. I saw it and see it all the time.

Spiritual abuse runs rampant in the LC, and it’s largely because those in the LC assume that the leaders have only the best intentions. LCers thus become willing to let things go that they really shouldn’t let go. They become willing to dismiss concerns as being nothing.

One lesson that I learned the hard way was when I came to realize that people in the LC will take advantage of those who are readily willing to forgive others, or those who are non-aggressive. If you happen to stand your ground, then all the sudden, you get labeled as “having an offense” with someone.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

One lesson that I learned the hard way was when I came to realize that people in the LC will take advantage of those who are readily willing to forgive others, or those who are non-aggressive. If you happen to stand your ground, then all the sudden, you get labeled as “having an offense” with someone.

You're so right. The program is set up by abusive men, and enables hot-tempered personalities. Once when I decided to stop taking the blame, and calmly refused to back down from his aggressions, the elder went ballistic on me, and I was nearly hospitalized. Later I was lectured about forgiving him, and "protecting" the eldership.