Signs of Decline in LSMs Recovery - Tomes

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Ok, I'm being sarcastic here... but really- that kind of passive aggressive dumbing down power move is EXACTLY what happens. And it's too much- gotta call it out when I see it now. Hopefully, people reading will RECOGNIZE when it's being done to them.

You're using someone's relationship with the Lord and their place in the body of Christ AGAINST them- dismissing and subliminally shaming them, in order to get a certain desired behavior. It's called spiritual abuse. It's manipulative and a sin in the body of Christ. I saw it and see it all the time.

Spiritual abuse runs rampant in the LC, and it’s largely because those in the LC assume that the leaders have only the best intentions. LCers thus become willing to let things go that they really shouldn’t let go. They become willing to dismiss concerns as being nothing.

One lesson that I learned the hard way was when I came to realize that people in the LC will take advantage of those who are readily willing to forgive others, or those who are non-aggressive. If you happen to stand your ground, then all the sudden, you get labeled as “having an offense” with someone.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

One lesson that I learned the hard way was when I came to realize that people in the LC will take advantage of those who are readily willing to forgive others, or those who are non-aggressive. If you happen to stand your ground, then all the sudden, you get labeled as “having an offense” with someone.

You're so right. The program is set up by abusive men, and enables hot-tempered personalities. Once when I decided to stop taking the blame, and calmly refused to back down from his aggressions, the elder went ballistic on me, and I was nearly hospitalized. Later I was lectured about forgiving him, and "protecting" the eldership.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You're so right. The program is set up by abusive men, and enables hot-tempered personalities. Once when I decided to stop taking the blame, and calmly refused to back down from his aggressions, the elder went ballistic on me, and I was nearly hospitalized. Later I was lectured about forgiving him, and "protecting" the eldership.

In the back of my mind, I could always tell that there was something not quite right about how LCers interacted with each other with respect to conflicts and conflict resolution. In fact, most of the conflicts that I observed were manifested as angry outbursts instead of being just a simple disagreement. Such outbursts occur because the LCM does not feel that the 'lesser' party should stand their ground, and "agreeing to disagree" is not viewed as an appropriate resolution. One side must "take the cross" which always ends up being the person who is not in an authority role.

I had an interesting situation where the wife of an elder was making a point to say things publicly towards me that were demeaning, all because she didn't like my personality. There wasn't anything I could do about her behavior, being that she was the wife of an elder. And indeed, when people had previously tried to confront her about the same type of behavior, she had become livid. The elders all knew very well that she was a problem, but the felt that people affected by her behavior should just not worry about it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the back of my mind, I could always tell that there was something not quite right about how LCers interacted with each other with respect to conflicts and conflict resolution. In fact, most of the conflicts that I observed were manifested as angry outbursts instead of being just a simple disagreement. Such outbursts occur because the LCM does not feel that the 'lesser' party should stand their ground, and "agreeing to disagree" is not viewed as an appropriate resolution. One side must "take the cross" which always ends up being the person who is not in an authority role.

The constant abuse and lack of civility all comes from the top. Supposedly this aspect of TLR came from a sister M. Barber, who "perfected" Nee by rebuking him. Remember the old saying, that "it" of the "sh" kind always rolls down hill. By the time I left, there was a line ringing in my head, "this program turns beloved brothers into bullies." It was all too evident on every level. Bullies just reproduce themselves. It also partly explains so many family breakups.

Can someone please show me just one scripture for this "recovered" method of perfecting brothers?

I talked to my son about his time in the LC. He relayed a story about going on an overnight church camp. While they were playing basketball, one of the kids was moody and went to his dad complaining. Dad came back, never asked a single question of any of the other boys, and went to my son and grabbed him around the neck. But Dad was a "burning" brother who went door-knocking with the elder, so he was never held accountable. How can a chaperone behave like this?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I talked to my son about his time in the LC. He relayed a story about going on an overnight church camp. While they were playing basketball, one of the kids was moody and went to his dad complaining. Dad came back, never asked a single question of any of the other boys, and went to my son and grabbed him around the neck. But Dad was a "burning" brother who went door-knocking with the elder, so he was never held accountable. How can a chaperone behave like this?

Being a father myself, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more instances of children not willing to talk about being bullied. In the local churches, it does happen. I have seen it and I have heard about it. Real question is how will parents respond when their children come forward? Some parents no matter how submissive they have been in the past towards responsible brothers, you touch their children physically or verbally, the line has been crossed.
Other parents may care more about their standing in the church, the church is more important than their children.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The constant abuse and lack of civility all comes from the top. Supposedly this aspect of TLR came from a sister M. Barber, who "perfected" Nee by rebuking him. Remember the old saying, that "it" of the "sh" kind always rolls down hill. By the time I left, there was a line ringing in my head, "this program turns beloved brothers into bullies." It was all too evident on every level. Bullies just reproduce themselves. It also partly explains so many family breakups.

Can someone please show me just one scripture for this "recovered" method of perfecting brothers?

I talked to my son about his time in the LC. He relayed a story about going on an overnight church camp. While they were playing basketball, one of the kids was moody and went to his dad complaining. Dad came back, never asked a single question of any of the other boys, and went to my son and grabbed him around the neck. But Dad was a "burning" brother who went door-knocking with the elder, so he was never held accountable. How can a chaperone behave like this?

Scripture shows that M.E. Barber’s mean, scolding, browbeating, unloving, unforgiving, and divisive “mentoring” of the group of young Chinese boys (including Watchman Nee) was not worthy of Christ’s calling and was the opposite of the perfecting of saints to the work of ministry that builds up the church, the one body of Christ. Read Ephesians 4 again http://biblehub.com/blb/ephesians/4.htm. It says:
v2 humility, gentleness, bearing one another in love is the first characteristic of a walk worthy of Christ’s calling (v1)
v3-6 being diligent to keep the unity of The Spirit in the uniting bond of peace is the second characteristic (not working to divide off a small group of “the enlightened”)
V7-13 to each one of us grace (not meanness or a domineering spirit) was given by the ascended Christ toward the perfecting of the saints (not just a group of young men) unto the work of the ministry for the building up of the body of Christ until we all (not a chosen few) may attain unto the unity of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, unto a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
v 15-16 speaking the truth is in love and should be for the whole body to be built up in love (I never got the impression this was the case for her)
v29 wholesome and only good words (not harsh and demeaning) should come out of our mouths for edification and building up of others (not tearing down)
v30 bitterness, rage, anger, slander, clamor, with all malice are to be removed from us (not part of our teaching or treatment of others)
v31 we are to be kind and tender hearted toward each other, forgiving each other as God in Christ forgave us

The fact that the founder of “the local churches” had his beginning that way, and that sort of behavior is common in “the local churches” today is a big reason to leave and/or stay away from them.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the back of my mind, I could always tell that there was something not quite right about how LCers interacted with each other with respect to conflicts and conflict resolution. In fact, most of the conflicts that I observed were manifested as angry outbursts instead of being just a simple disagreement. Such outbursts occur because the LCM does not feel that the 'lesser' party should stand their ground, and "agreeing to disagree" is not viewed as an appropriate resolution. One side must "take the cross" which always ends up being the person who is not in an authority role.

That's usually how it works. The one in authority role almost never seeks reconciliation for their actions or their speaking. You or I as the non-authority ones would be expected to "take the cross". When you say taking the cross, it is usually intended to be "not making an issue".
I think the brothers could care less if the cross is taken or not. That's a matter between the individual and the Lord.
What the brothers really care about is "not making an issue". If there's an unresolved matter and a brother is exercised to use the prayer meeting or prophesying meeting as an opportunity to "tell it to the church", that's not the type of conflict resolution the brothers are willing to entertain.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's usually how it works. The one in authority role almost never seeks reconciliation for their actions or their speaking. You or I as the non-authority ones would be expected to "take the cross". When you say taking the cross, it is usually intended to be "not making an issue".
I think the brothers could care less if the cross is taken or not. That's a matter between the individual and the Lord.
What the brothers really care about is "not making an issue". If there's an unresolved matter and a brother is exercised to use the prayer meeting or prophesying meeting as an opportunity to "tell it to the church", that's not the type of conflict resolution the brothers are willing to entertain.

The LC view of authority is based on some kind of notion that for a leader to make a compromise or admission of any sorts would undermine his authority. LC elders and leadership thus adopt a “take it or leave” it attitude. The ‘lesser’ party must be the one to make the compromise.

In the LC, I observed quite a few problems occur that the elders should have addressed and they failed to anything. It seemed to be that they didn’t want to have to make a difficult decision. Rather than use their position as a leader to present a solution, they instead used their position to reinforce their level of authority, to make sure that both sides knew that they didn’t have to take any action if they didn’t want to.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The LC view of authority is based on some kind of notion that for a leader to make a compromise or admission of any sorts would undermine his authority. LC elders and leadership thus adopt a “take it or leave” it attitude. The ‘lesser’ party must be the one to make the compromise.

In the LC, I observed quite a few problems occur that the elders should have addressed and they failed to anything. It seemed to be that they didn’t want to have to make a difficult decision. Rather than use their position as a leader to present a solution, they instead used their position to reinforce their level of authority, to make sure that both sides knew that they didn’t have to take any action if they didn’t want to.

Jesus healed. He forgave. But when they tried to make him king, he refused. When they asked him to command others, he balked: "Who put me in authority over you?" Luke 12:14

Beware of wolves who dress like sheep. They create 'ekklesia' based on some abstract ideal, say, "oneness". And you become convinced this is the way. And one day you wake up and you are far from the reality of the kingdom. The ideal was merely a leverage point over your mind.

You will see that these people do not heal, nor forgive. But they want to tell you what to do. What to say, what to read, what to think.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus healed. He forgave. But when they tried to make him king, he refused. When they asked him to command others, he balked: "Who put me in authority over you?" Luke 12:14

Beware of wolves who dress like sheep. They create 'ekklesia' based on some abstract ideal, say, "oneness". And you become convinced this is the way. And one day you wake up and you are far from the reality of the kingdom. The ideal was merely a leverage point over your mind.

You will see that these people do not heal, nor forgive. But they want to tell you what to do. What to say, what to read, what to think.

In the past it's been easy to maintain ignorance. Not so easy today, with so much information at our fingertips.

Ignorance was easier to maintain before the internet, easier still a hundred years ago, and completely easy a thousand, two thousand, three thousand years, etc., ago.

It's also easy to maintain ignorance in cult groups, that close members off from information other than that that comes from the cult.

If we start with answers before the questions ignorance is easy to maintain ; or if we trust only the cult's answers, before we even had the questions, ignorance is easy to maintained.

Today there's no excuse for ignorance. If we've been in the LC, and have come out, we've got a lot of catching up to do. Trapped in our ignorance we fell behind.

There's lots to learn in this world ; the universe is big. When we begin to think for our self, after the LC, we should feel cheated from discovery of so much truth.

For some reason some just don't want to think for themselves. This makes them prime material -- good material, if you will -- for cults.

I understand that the world is easier if we let someone else do our thinking ... but then we just accept ignorance because it's easier. It's the lazy way to go.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

One side must "take the cross" which always ends up being the person who is not in an authority role..

Jesus had the authority to heal. What authority to these wanna-be satraps have? To boss others around?

Originally Posted by Freedom

I had an interesting situation where the wife of an elder was making a point to say things publicly towards me that were demeaning, all because she didn't like my personality. There wasn't anything I could do about her behavior, being that she was the wife of an elder. And indeed, when people had previously tried to confront her about the same type of behavior, she had become livid. The elders all knew very well that she was a problem, but the felt that people affected by her behavior should just not worry about it.

This is a rigid and inflexible system where there is one "untouchable" at the top, and people on the way down have different degrees of "touchability" depending where they are in proximity to the Untouchable One.

Completely set up for infiltration and usurpation by the evil one. It's no contest folks - satan loves this stuff. For him this is like eating cocoa crispies. Yummy yummy. We need to break out of the idea that we got a new and improved model imported from foreign shores. Just because it seems different from the Western denominations doesn't mean it is. Same system, different label. People dominating others. People who lack self-control trying to manipulate a "favorable" scenario to make themselves feel better.

Jesus is the new and improved model. Somehow we get tricked into thinking that the gospel got "processed" or "re-configured" and somehow we get to behave poorly, because we're aligned with some conceptual model, "God's economy" or whatever. You end up killing people (at least figuratively) and thinking that you are serving God. See e.g., John 16:2