First Post kumbaya

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Years ago, the whole saga of the Bible Answer Man was a recurring nightmare of mine. Lee and BAM had a public feud in Orange County about the time I joined the LC. My cousin (same age went to HS together) got saved about the same time as I did, but fashioned himself as a soapbox apologetic defender of the faith with Walter Martin as his hero. He found out that I was in the LC, and informed everyone about it. He terrorized the LC on the university he was at. He never approached me for fellowship but would use every family gathering to assault me with accusations. He ruined a couple of my siblings' weddings for me. Cousin was not even invited but had a heavenly calling to show up and defame me. There was never conversation or fellowship -- only accusations. Eventually cousin contracted skin cancer in his late 30's and died a horrible death sipping morphine in the back room. Or so I was told.

Back in the 70's Walter Martin made a huge deal about modalism with W. Lee. When the Jonestown suicide/massacre happened in 1978, all of America was spooked by cults and cult leaders. I defended Lee for years, and never thought that he was a modalist or a heretic. Lee loved a good fight though, playing the victim as a "persecuted apostle." With both Lee and Martin convinced that they both were the true defenders of the faith, neither would ever back down or dream of reconciliation. It really suited Lee's world view that all of Christianity was out to destroy the Lord's Recovery, and he alone was faithful to the Lord. So it's no wonder that me and all the brothers I knew felt the same way.

Decades later Hank Hannegraft was paid off, wined and dined by LSM, to flip-flop his position on the LC. He lived a lavish lifestyle, and many of his former associates have no respect for the guy. It's so funny and ironic that LSM and the LC's found actual validation from HH and CRI. It was a hot topic on this forum for a while. "We Were Wrong" was basically a polished farce. Frankly they never focused on the real issues at LSM. No outsiders have. That is the benefit of this internet forum -- we can read the actual testimonies of real witnesses who were LC members for decades. Neither Martin nor Hankygraft ever portrayed the LSM accurately. They missed everything important, and never interviewed her actual trail of victims.

I'm just including this whole quote from you because I'm reading it and feeling "shocked" that I'm still shocked about everything in your response. I'm sure it's old news to many on here but I'm assuming many can remember when they came out of the LC and were "shocked" by information they heard/believed and then kept being confirmed. I know this is true, I've read it, I believe it, but still- hearing it confirmed still manages to upset me....

Like I'm waiting to be proven wrong, and it's not happening....

I'm just in a totally different perspective now and gaining my bearings, I guess. It's one thing to see some videos on youtube bashing Hank Hanegraff but you have to realize that dear dear believers who I loved and respected felt so JUSTIFIED by that article. It PROVED everything they/we believed....that just becomes a part of you and it makes me realize how damaging the mindset in the LC really was. Maybe it's the Lord's plan for me, I don't know. But turning away from this mindset and opposing it is so lonely, and can I say, IMPOSSIBLE without a forum like this. I'm getting "fed" (sorry- LC term!) from not only the accounts but the verses, songs, testimonies on this site. Who knew- all these hundreds and into thousands of people have a life that goes on after leaving for GOOD. It's one thing to believe it, another to SEE IT HAPPENING. Is it UNTO HIM that started this site? I'm not clear on that. Whoever started it, thank you. And thank you to whoever started the Bereans site. And everyone that has posted and written so much. You have NO IDEA the anchor its been for me, some of my family now, and some friends that are starting to read. My extended family has reached out, I feel like the Lord is doing something. I have to believe that.

If all this is true, its just makes me wonder how H.H. sleeps at night. How do you get to a point when you justify this? Do you not think you'll pay in eternity for taking "blood money" (tithes) in exchange for a misguided Christian group's justification? If it's true, H.H. is misleading thousands and thousands of people and SOLIDIFYING their relationship with a group that is taking FULL advantage of their trusting nature (as a whole). I know we're all capable of anything but it's just devastating to see how evil can creep in these groups of people and do so much damage. A friend of mine is reading, "My unforgettable memories" by Lily Hsu and recommended it. I've seen it posted on this site. I'm just at a point where I don't want to hear about more Christian men (or women) being accused of wrong doings. I tend to believe it, given the nature of the situation. But the truth is, it doesn't matter. Jesus reigns.

I'm tired of seeing my family's relationships and others strained, seeing them spend money on LSM gimmicks, seeing people be exploited. You're right, it's a recurring nightmare.

But it's New Years Eve, it's time to look forward for me, I think. I do want to read more on church history and get facts straight. If anything, to help anyone who approaches me about it (I've made my opinion known) but first, I need to learn for myself.

I'm so sorry about your cousin, I don't doubt he had a genuine salvation. It sounds like he may have stayed immature in his walk with the Lord (something we all face), and didn't let the Lord grow in him (side note- even saying that I'm thinking, "is this LC lingo- should I be saying that??). But really, that is incredibly sad for your family and I'm so sorry. I hope there was some forgiveness and repentance there, I really can't imagine that feeling of being Christians and feeling nothing short of hate to another Christian. Not just anger, but what seems like a deep hate or at least opposition. I know it looks like a slippery slope though and I hope God has mercy on my family that we don't get there, or with other people. On the other hand, I think there is a responsibility to be held accountable- especially to people in that position in life and leadership. People seem to want the power but none of the accountability. I know most of us do what we're doing because we think we're right! But "without love"- nothing matters. It doesn't matter how right we think we are, without love. It sounds like you and so many (myself included) where just in "group think" mode with Lee. Group think is so dangerous, more so with spiritual things, in my opinion. The balance of "being one" and "group think" is something I feel to someday learn where the lines are drawn between the two.

Without love, I wouldn't have had a relationship with my grandparents (on either side, and interestingly enough- from opposite ends) or with my aunts/uncles/cousins. Reading so many stories makes me realize how much I have to be thankful for. It may have not been perfect, but they got through it- with love.

My grandfather was a pastor (in a denomination so no good according to my parents mindsets at the time) and I've recently heard he told my grandmother, aunt and uncle that, "Love will get our family through this," and "we are going to love them to death" when things were at an extremely difficult point in the late 70's early 80's. Back then, things were way more extreme. Some were saying to choose either family or the church, my parents wouldn't even enter home with Christmas trees, it was all very extreme. I don't remember any of that so at least it was kept hidden from me or the extremeness of it faded by the time I was in elementary school. I just say all that because I'm really just reminding myself (and others too) that is the NUMBER ONE priority and to pray that God gives you that LOVE every day, when it's hard. I know I have some "hard" days ahead where I'll need it!

It sounds like the Jonestown hype is similar to the Scientology hype going on today. On one hand, it taught me a lot about mind control when watching these documentaries and series, and then studying them myself because of some of the similarities I saw. On the other hand, I heard that these methods differ in severity and I should actually be thankful in comparison that our family was not in Scientology! Perspective is a hard and necessary, every day needed sort of thing. I'm sorry your cousin created such a situation, it seems his mindset was extrement narrowed. Obviously, that is not the nature of Jesus and your cousins conscience probably wasn't in tune with where it needed to be. There's no excuse for ruining weddings or awkward confrontational accusations. And I sorry to hear that W.L. was his hero//. I did seem to like that Walter Martin didn't care about what people thought about him, because I have a love/hate issue with that myself with people. But that doesn't mean that his motives were totally pure and even if they were, it's no excuse for your cousin to behave like that, obviously.

I feel like these "little things" are just the seed that lead us on a path away from connecting with each other. It's a really dangerous thing to think we're superior and have it right, and look at other people from that mindset. Even with myself, now, I have to force myself to stop and "let God move" it, and not control it. It's an incredibly hard thing and most of the time, I fail.

I think that's the main issue though that happens with all of us, one way or another. Our ego's or "flesh" or however you want to describe it, gets in the way of connection. Sometimes you just can't connect because there's too many walls. With some relationships, it takes more than "one day" of that sort of attitude.

I just personally think that with Lee and Martin, modalism and practices were probably secondary issues. I can see them both having a "haughty" spirit. Obviously, that's going to be a standstill. But when you're famous (they both were in their own respects) I feel like the ability to be humble is slowly taken away. When no one questions you, how can you stand to be questioned? I'm looking back at your comment now, so Walter Martin and WL had a public feud or H.H and WL? Where did it happen? Was it set up as a debate? I'd pay good money to have seen that, ha!! It would be entertaining but in reality, just sad. I'm not judging their salvation but we're to love our neighbor, not "saved" neighbor and they're not even doing that, and calling themselves Christians. I think this is a big issue bc no matter the offense, with Lee, Nee, anyone....in Christ, we're one. And definitely ONLY in Christ, bc I don't really feel anything close to WL at all. And I don't feel it's my place to say anything about that. I don't know. It's just sad these guys who probably helped many people, hurt more people by causing division.

It's so sad to hear about H.H. but after realizing all this about WL and the LC, I guess I'm not as easily shocked! After the article came out, I was told from an older full-time sister (she was widowed and I genuinely honor and respect this woman from what I've seen). Even so, she is not resistant from thought reform tactics and she believed what she was telling me when she told me that Hank Hanagraff had started attending some home meetings in CA and that he probably just had conflict meeting full time with the local church because of his position as the "Bible answer man." It was definitely hinted though that at this point, if he wasn't in the position at CRI- then he would probably be meeting with the church. Well I'm sorry, I just have a hard time believing this given that he's now a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I agree that in Europe- it looks totally dead and there may be some "life" brewing in the US in these groups but it come down to one of the basic doctrines of the faith- and a big one, right? Justification by faith. I am almost not qualified to speak on this, I'm not actually- so I take zero offense to being corrected....the E.O.C. believes in faith plus works for 99% of people. You get "free ride" if you immediately believe before you die. That was the impression I got after learning about it but I admit, I may have it wrong. With H.H., I already suspected the "We were wrong article seemed too contrived last month, really believed this was some sort of sham when H.H. converted. You don't build your reputation on being Protestant and then flip like that without your motives being questioned. That is a BIG DEAL to do that, in my opinion. He was the Bible answer man, not just Joe Schmoe going to "life church." This was his career too. It just didn't make any sense except for financial gain. So yes, I believed more that he was a con and that article called him out on it too. I didn't know there was so much controversy on this forum about it, I'll have to read about it. What do you know about him being "wined and dined", Ohio? Seeing the issues now, I can obviously see that the REAL issues in the LC were definitely not addressed by the "We were Wrong" article but at the time, of course, I had no idea. It's easy to just assume that a Christian Research Journal would accurately cover all the appropriate topics to cover! Whether past or present....

Obviously, that is not the case! I'm "scratching the surface" of some of the writings/exposing of doctrines on this forum and I'm so thankful for it!!

It's almost the New Year now... I obviously have no life and I'm using this moment to be very introspective when going into 2018. I'm fine with that though. This year has been so crazy for me in multiple ways and this site has been invaluable.

Happy New Year everyone and my prayer is that God does His work in us all

[Ohio]

When I found the Bereans forum in 2005, UntoHim and Matt Anderson (his mom wrote "Thread of Gold" book on her story) were the moderators of the LC subforum. It had other subforums on a host of other religions. With all the chaos surrounding LSM's quarantines and takeover of the GLA LC's, that forum was the goto site to expose and discuss all of LSM's crooked endeavors and writings. Numerous former elders and workers posted, and with so much excellent input from so many witnesses, it was undeniable how twisted and corrupt LSM had become.

No one really knew why the Philipino owners of the Bereans website became increasingly erratic. At one point they upgraded their software, and all the archives were lost. Everything on that site is now gone. So UntoHim was able to start this forum. In the beginning, the two forums competed, and eventually we all jumped off that sinking ship. Now, after a decade, we get noticed by all the search forums and LSM is just furious about that, but they can't file lawsuits against internet forums.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I found the Bereans forum in 2005, UntoHim and Matt Anderson (his mom wrote "Thread of Gold" book on her story) were the moderators of the LC subforum. It had other subforums on a host of other religions. With all the chaos surrounding LSM's quarantines and takeover of the GLA LC's, that forum was the goto site to expose and discuss all of LSM's crooked endeavors and writings. Numerous former elders and workers posted, and with so much excellent input from so many witnesses, it was undeniable how twisted and corrupt LSM had become.

No one really knew why the Philipino owners of the Bereans website became increasingly erratic. At one point they upgraded their software, and all the archives were lost. Everything on that site is now gone. So UntoHim was able to start this forum. In the beginning, the two forums competed, and eventually we all jumped off that sinking ship. Now, after a decade, we get noticed by all the search forums and LSM is just furious about that, but they can't file lawsuits against internet forums.

Wow. Thanks for that info- I was a little confused about why people talked about that website but couldn't find an active link for it...

I can't say I'm surprised about the lawsuits against web sites. I wonder, can you search for a list of their past/present lawsuits?

I'm just curious to how extreme it is (or isn't)....

Thank you, UntoHim, for starting this forum!! I know it's helped me, some of my family, and many others!

I've read Jane's book and communicated a bit with her, she seems really sweet. At the time, I was sort of in shock about this whole thing and didn't reach out to her more...

We're so fortunate to have this info from decades and more back available to anyone who is questioning LSM/LC practices. So thankful for the knowledge, connection, and hope going forward

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Wow. Thanks for that info- I was a little confused about why people talked about that website but couldn't find an active link for it...
I can't say I'm surprised about the lawsuits against web sites. I wonder, can you search for a list of their past/present lawsuits?
I'm just curious to how extreme it is (or isn't)....

I once found a chart of their numerous legal proceedings. It numbered 2 or 3 dozen. Some were merely legal threats to publishers to retract anything damaging against them. The Heritage House lawsuit was taken to the Supreme Court just a few years back. We had some discussion about it.

The chart did NOT include all the lawsuits in the GLA after the quarantines. Things got really ugly. Operatives from LSM / DCP would hold "training sessions" to help the local "insurgents." Toronto Canada was seen as a huge prize for them, and 2 of their 9 elders were used by LSM. One of their elders and ministers, a former professor named Nigel Tomes, has written extensively on a whole host of topics dismantling LSM teachings. Most of his articles are referenced here.

During the Quarantine, numerous brothers in the GLA wrote. Some posted here. The website is concernedbrothers dot com or dot org. Eventually, Nigel's writings became even too "hot" for those closest to Titus Chu, and they have parted ways. Same with John Myer, who wrote "Future and Hope."

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I once found a chart of their numerous legal proceedings. It numbered 2 or 3 dozen. Some were merely legal threats to publishers to retract anything damaging against them. The Heritage House lawsuit was taken to the Supreme Court just a few years back. We had some discussion about it.

The chart did NOT include all the lawsuits in the GLA after the quarantines. Things got really ugly. Operatives from LSM / DCP would hold "training sessions" to help the local "insurgents." Toronto Canada was seen as a huge prize for them, and 2 of their 9 elders were used by LSM. One of their elders and ministers, a former professor named Nigel Tomes, has written extensively on a whole host of topics dismantling LSM teachings. Most of his articles are referenced here.

During the Quarantine, numerous brothers in the GLA wrote. Some posted here. The website is concernedbrothers dot com or dot org. Eventually, Nigel's writings became even too "hot" for those closest to Titus Chu, and they have parted ways. Same with John Myer, who wrote "Future and Hope."

Wow. Well I definitely don't believe it's ok for a church to sue unless it's some sort of equivalent to a "life or death" situation. It's not turning the other cheek, for sure. Also, I think the fact that its not talked about to members is wrong.

Would it be entirely crazy to vote on these matters? I personally would not want my tithes to go to these lawsuits. I wonder how that money is appropriated....

I find apologetic discussions very interesting but it's definitely sad to see divisiveness over them. Those debates can really go too far...

I've read the concernedbrothers page- thought it sounded well done and tactful.

We all have our opinions on things, I think the issues of the faith are the most important and maybe it's easier for me bc I'm just a little "hippy-ish" at heart, and I know it's important to study doctrine, but there has to be balance. That being said though, I'm glad there's people that aren't like me and get into the nitty gritty of the translations and meanings. Without that, we could REALLY be off course! We can all learn from each other though and we all have our share of Jesus to share with each other, hopefully

[JJ]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Wow. Well I definitely don't believe it's ok for a church to sue unless it's some sort of equivalent to a "life or death" situation. It's not turning the other cheek, for sure. Also, I think the fact that its not talked about to members is wrong.

Would it be entirely crazy to vote on these matters? I personally would not want my tithes to go to these lawsuits. I wonder how that money is appropriated....

I find apologetic discussions very interesting but it's definitely sad to see divisiveness over them. Those debates can really go too far...

I've read the concernedbrothers page- thought it sounded well done and tactful.

We all have our opinions on things, I think the issues of the faith are the most important and maybe it's easier for me bc I'm just a little "hippy-ish" at heart, and I know it's important to study doctrine, but there has to be balance. That being said though, I'm glad there's people that aren't like me and get into the nitty gritty of the translations and meanings. Without that, we could REALLY be off course! We can all learn from each other though and we all have our share of Jesus to share with each other, hopefully

Lawsuits being wrong is not a matter of opinion. It is explicitly prohibited by scripture http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/6.htm

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and later “The Defense and Confirmation Project (run by LSM leaders) openly used their funds, collected from “donations”, sales of their literature, to sue other believers, and encouraged “the saints” to contribute (donate) even more to support them!

This is to their shame! Using Paul’s words, not mine.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Lawsuits being wrong is not a matter of opinion. It is explicitly prohibited by scripture http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/6.htm

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and later “The Defense and Confirmation Project (run by LSM leaders) openly used their funds, collected from “donations”, sales of their literature, to sue other believers, and encouraged “the saints” to contribute (donate) even more to support them!

This is to their shame! Using Paul’s words, not mine.

One of the political games that was played after Lee's passing was that LSM would stop bashing Titus Chu from the podium, and in exchange, all the Midwest LC's would send money each month to LSM/DCP to cover the costs of the Heritage House lawsuits that went all the way to the SCOTUS.

The Blendeds, however, never did honor their end of the deal. They continued to bash the Midwest, sowing suspicions into the saints at all their "Feasts." The Midwest LC's then mostly stopped attending their Feasts. Later on then were Quarantined, and LSM used the money to sue the Midwest LC's.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by JJ

Lawsuits being wrong is not a matter of opinion. It is explicitly prohibited by scripture http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/6.htm

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and later “The Defense and Confirmation Project (run by LSM leaders) openly used their funds, collected from “donations”, sales of their literature, to sue other believers, and encouraged “the saints” to contribute (donate) even more to support them!

This is to their shame! Using Paul’s words, not mine.

Funny- for being so “bold” in their actions/stance-they certainly don’t talk about it much to the local churches (at least in the locality I was in).

They’re exploiting sweet people who I believe give (many) 10% or more of their income. I believe their hearts are good so it’s covered if they don’t know where it’s going. I wish more light and awareness would shine on this issue

Thank you, I’m going to read those verses about suing...

I specifically remember (in the 80’s) the lawsuits being talked about in our home and my dad saying, “We didn’t have a choice!”

Well, that wasn’t my dad’s choice to make. I’m in no way blaming him. But it’s interesting that he said “we” when I’m sure the decision wasn't his. He was told the decision and he went along with it-trusting the ones leading.

Thanks for the verse link!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

My grandfather was a pastor (in a denomination so no good according to my parents mindsets at the time) and I've recently heard he told my grandmother, aunt and uncle that, "Love will get our family through this," and "we are going to love them to death" when things were at an extremely difficult point in the late 70's early 80's. Back then, things were way more extreme. Some were saying to choose either family or the church, my parents wouldn't even enter home with Christmas trees, it was all very extreme. I don't remember any of that so at least it was kept hidden from me or the extremeness of it faded by the time I was in elementary school. I just say all that because I'm really just reminding myself (and others too) that is the NUMBER ONE priority and to pray that God gives you that LOVE every day, when it's hard. I know I have some "hard" days ahead where I'll need it!

Dear Kumbaya,

I love your grandfathers' words, "Love will get our family through this."

The bolded sentence above stood out to me, and yes, that's what was continually presented to us in those days. The line from Revel. 18.4, "Come out of her My people," was used for every context -- jobs, family, denominations, etc. There was a fever pitch to be separated from everything to the church, Lee's church. W. Lee would twist Paul's salvation story to reinforce this mantra. Since the Lord asked him, "why are you persecuting Me," Lee went on to say that we can never separate Christ and the church. Repeat n-e-v-e-r. Our brain cells had been rewired to think this way.

But, after abuse, infighting, and endless nonsense, we did leave. I even started visiting poor, poor, Christianity. One morning I had an "epiphany" of sorts listening to the sharing. The minister said at one point, "First the Lord, then our family, then our jobs and the church." Lights went off. My circuits got rewired.

Then I began to think about the deleterious effects on so many lives by placing Christ and the church inseparably together. Firstly, by filling our lives with endless church service and ministry messages, we got disconnected from the Lord Himself. Secondly, by filling our lives with endless church service and ministry messages, we didn't have family. By improperly connecting Christ and the Church, we ended up with only church, and not Christ or family.

Very convenient teaching for WL and the Blendeds!

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

If all this is true, its just makes me wonder how H.H. sleeps at night.

At one point, a few years back, I read the H.H. story. He took over a widely-known Christian apologetics ministry (Walter Martin) and made it his personal cash cow. He got, I'm going by memory here - something like $400,000 per year. Wife was Associate director or something like that, she got like $125,000. They got his-and-hers Lexus', membership to the swanky golf club ($2,000/year), a house worth several hundred thousand, all paid for, tax-free, by the non-profit 'ministry'.

All this was public record, because this was a non-profit corporation forced to show the 'books'.

And he left behind a trail of embittered former staffers, who ghost-wrote Hank's material for minimum wage and no credit.

Pretty sad stuff.

[Intothewind]

Kumbaya:

I imagine the embarrassment of them explaining away where their son went, and his disinterest in traditional lc lifestyle, the fervent but useless prayer, the possibility of living a comfortable lc life if I could just go along with it.