The Church in Sardis prefigures the Protestant Reformation?

awareness · 10-10-2017, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

In the portrayal of the New Jerusalem we see a throne, and a river bright as crystal proceeding out of the throne, and a tree of life growing along the river. These are distinct items...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Those items don't actually exist of course. They are just metaphors for some spiritual truth. So everything mentioned is distinct in terms of an aspect of God, but in and of themselves they are not distinct because they all relate to the one Person. Similarly, terms such as bread of heaven, lamb of God, all relate to Christ. If we imagine the bread and the lamb to be distinct separate things, then we will find ourselves in a conundrum.

For example, typically God is pictured as a man with a long white beard sitting on a big chair, called God's throne. I don't think God sits on an actual throne. A throne is a human invention, an ancient piece of furniture, and monarchs in different ages and cultures have different ways to show their status and power - not necessarily a big fancy piece of furniture. Humans created chairs, and why does God have to sit anyway, does He get tired? And does the throne have any meaning when God is not on it? Can we consider a big chair in heaven as distinct from God? I don't think so. A picture of heaven with a big chair on it and God not there on the throne does not make much sense or mean anything. Symbolically it means "God is not on the throne", and this is related to God, not the chair. So the throne in itself has no meaning. So I understand "throne of God" to mean one aspect of God and not referring to a piece of "heavenly furniture". Similarly, the river in and of itself has little meaning, unless it is related in some way to God. So it is correct to say that "the throne is God" and "the river is God". It makes sense if we understand that they are metaphors for different aspects of the same Person. It is like saying "my arm is me", and "my leg is me", the arm is distinct from the leg but in a way they are just "me".

You said before "Let me suggest a subtitle: "Everything is Everything"."

Actually Lee believed "everything is Christ". So the tree of life is Christ, the altar is Christ, everything is Christ. Similarly, the cross or crucifixion without Christ has no meaning.

I'm glad you made all these metaphors plain. And I agree with you.

Except : I took a stand against what was called The Flow of Oneness, brought by the lead elder from Anaheim. The flow of oneness didn't take the throne, river, and tree of life as a metaphor.

It was explained that, the river flows from Christ on the throne, carrying the authority of the throne, to, The Apostle on the earth, Witness Lee.

So you say, it's all metaphor, but Witness Lee took it as literal to establish himself as The MOTA.

Another Bible reference used to support The Flow of Oneness was :

Psa 133:1 A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
Psa 133:2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

In this reference the precious ointment (the Holy Spirit) was poured upon the head, Witness Lee, then ran down the beard (the elders) and finally down to the garments (us little potato's).

I got the boot for disagreeing with The Flow of Oneness. The verses they used from Revelation and Psalms were not taken as metaphorical, but as literal, to established Witness Lee as the MOTA.

aron · 10-12-2017, 02:51 AM

Evangelical says a throne is just a chair and God doesn't need a chair - why, is God tired? No. So no chair, no throne. A throne is a metaphor, like tree, or river, or city.

Perhaps so. But I'd prefer to act as if there's a real, physical chair somewhere. Just like Jesus ate a real, physical fish after resurrecting from the dead.

This is why - it gives me a metaphorical peg on which to hang my metaphorical hat. A conceptual center, if you will. It makes me more resistant to charlatans and wordsmiths who come anong with their own metaphorical centers, like "flow of oneness".

Witness Lee gave us a new so-called center every other month. They all flowed out from one center - Witness Lee.

Drake · 10-14-2017, 05:18 AM

-1

Aron>"But I'd prefer to act as if there's a real, physical chair somewhere."

It's how the Lord conveys His thoughts and ideas to us. The Bible is filled with imagery to express some reality.

It's like looking at a picture of crashing waves on a beach and then actually being there where you hear the sounds, smell the salty air, feel the breeze, and watch the waves swell and roll.

The throne, the crystal river, the tree of life, the fruits, the street, the wall, etc, are the imagery of a reality for us to enter into.

Sometimes I feel Ike a kid in a theme park where the wonders never end.

Drake

Evangelical · 10-15-2017, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Evangelical says a throne is just a chair and God doesn't need a chair - why, is God tired? No. So no chair, no throne. A throne is a metaphor, like tree, or river, or city.

Perhaps so. But I'd prefer to act as if there's a real, physical chair somewhere. Just like Jesus ate a real, physical fish after resurrecting from the dead.

This is why - it gives me a metaphorical peg on which to hang my metaphorical hat. A conceptual center, if you will. It makes me more resistant to charlatans and wordsmiths who come anong with their own metaphorical centers, like "flow of oneness".

Witness Lee gave us a new so-called center every other month. They all flowed out from one center - Witness Lee.

Jesus ate a physical fish in a physical world ..thats believable. Is Heaven a physical place? Can physical things exist in heaven?

A little brother · 10-15-2017, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Jesus ate a physical fish in a physical world ..thats believable. Is Heaven a physical place? Can physical things exist in heaven?

Isn't Jesus' resurrected body physical? Where is Jesus now?

Evangelical · 10-15-2017, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A little brother

Isn't Jesus' resurrected body physical? Where is Jesus now?

No, it is spiritual.

1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

A little brother · 10-15-2017, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, it is spiritual.

1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you behold Me having.

Ohio · 10-16-2017, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A little brother

Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you behold Me having.

With Evangelical, a little knowledge has always been dangerous. Where have we said that Jesus' spiritual body, which is still scarred by the cross, and can be touched and seen, is merely flesh and blood?

Perhaps it is just too wonderful for him to believe that the spiritual body of Jesus is beyond his limited mental apprehension. Apparently Jesus may have flesh and bones, yet not flesh and blood. I also doubt that the first mention of flesh is identical to the second.

The story on the road to Emmaus has always been quite telling to me. The resurrected Christ can completely blend in with humanity. In His resurrected body, Jesus walked and talked with the two brothers for miles, yet without halos and flashing lights to bring alarm to His true nature. This constantly blows all my theological fuses. How can it be? But it is!

There always seems to be a tinge of irony with EvanGee. How is it that he can blindly accept, though not mentioned in scripture, that he will become g(G)od? as W. Lee taught during his "high peak" period, yet struggle with what Jesus became?

10-12-2017, 02:51 AM	#2
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	Re: The Church in Sardis prefigures the Protestant Reformation? Evangelical says a throne is just a chair and God doesn't need a chair - why, is God tired? No. So no chair, no throne. A throne is a metaphor, like tree, or river, or city. Perhaps so. But I'd prefer to act as if there's a real, physical chair somewhere. Just like Jesus ate a real, physical fish after resurrecting from the dead. This is why - it gives me a metaphorical peg on which to hang my metaphorical hat. A conceptual center, if you will. It makes me more resistant to charlatans and wordsmiths who come anong with their own metaphorical centers, like "flow of oneness". Witness Lee gave us a new so-called center every other month. They all flowed out from one center - Witness Lee. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

10-14-2017, 05:18 AM	#3
Drake Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 2,075	Re: The Church in Sardis prefigures the Protestant Reformation? -1 Aron>"But I'd prefer to act as if there's a real, physical chair somewhere." It's how the Lord conveys His thoughts and ideas to us. The Bible is filled with imagery to express some reality. It's like looking at a picture of crashing waves on a beach and then actually being there where you hear the sounds, smell the salty air, feel the breeze, and watch the waves swell and roll. The throne, the crystal river, the tree of life, the fruits, the street, the wall, etc, are the imagery of a reality for us to enter into. Sometimes I feel Ike a kid in a theme park where the wonders never end. Drake