SPLIT THREAD - Early Lee - Later Lee

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

OBW, it seems to me that Don's point was that each of us tends to embellish stories in our favor, hence the need to report only what we have "seen and heard." My point was to reconcile what I felt were enigmatic contradictions seen in notably gifted Christian leaders. Your conclusion "what we can determine for certain is essentially nothing," imho, is too extreme to be helpful.

I would agree. My comment, while completely valid, was intended to point out that we cannot absolutely know. But I do believe that based on the number of observations, we can put bounds around the general nature of what is true.

But was Lee simply "normal" within his own behavior at Don's apartment in 1966? It is quite likely to be so. But that does not make looking into his past irrelevant. Many people think that I am this teddy bear kind of nice person. And even without trying, it often looks that way. But you get me riled up in certain ways and I can look and act more like Hitler on steroids. It almost seems impossible, especially for someone who has never seen that side but known me for years.

In any case, those "couldn't control a mosquito" statements are totaly irrelevant. Inability to control one thing makes no statement about ability and desire to control other things.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Many people think that I am this teddy bear kind of nice person. And even without trying, it often looks that way. But you get me riled up in certain ways and I can look and act more like Hitler on steroids. It almost seems impossible, especially for someone who has never seen that side but known me for years.

Personally, I do differentiate actions which are ugly outbursts of temper, and those events which are carefully planned and executed. Bad temper, while potentially dangerous and volatile, can be repented for with a remorse to match the "crime," and hopefully understood and forgiven by all parties involved.

We all are vulnerable to this. I'm a very low-key guy too, but recently this carload of guys next to me on the road got me so riled up, I thought about smashing my car into theirs. Road rage is real! Fortunately, I don't follow thru on all my impulses. Scary! Ohhhh Lord!

Anyways, the things that trouble me about WL and LSM are not "temper outbursts" or "everybody makes mistakes" or other happenstance gone awry, which, as a rule, often characterize aggressive, ambitious people.

[IDon'tKnow]

I think something to consider when considering early Lee and later Lee is the matter of the minister of the age. More specifically Witness Lee believed he was the Minister of the Age and that this was his position within the Body. An interesting thing to note is that when we are functioning in the Body in the measure that we are supposed to our yoke should be easy and our burden should be light. This should be because when we are our correct position we are yoked to the Lord, He is also yoked to us thus we find that we do not need to work by our flesh to function. If we attempt to assume a position within the Body which is not our own then it is reasonable to assume that we will find ourselves with heavy burdens. We are not properly yoked and we will inevitably find that if we want to maintain our position we will inevitably have to exercise self effort.

What I'm saying is that when we are accepting our proper God appointed position we can comfortably live by faith knowing that the Lord will take care of everything. When we seek to go above our position we can no longer have faith that Lord will take care of everything (Actually I think we can have faith in this so long as we accept that his taking care of things means returning ourselves to our rightful position), we have to work to maintain our position. Ergo when we are in our rightful position in the Body when something like Daystar goes belly up we can repent of wrong doing and trust that however it turns out (whether we are able to gather the money to rectify things or not) it will be according to His plan and we need not be anxious over it, If we are not in our proper position we must deal with the problem any way we can whether or not that involves performing more shady actions. When we are in our proper place we know that when others speak evilly of us we are blessed, When we are not we must sue them to shut their mouth. When we are in our place we can trust that when we minister whether or not what we minister will be received either wholly or in part is in the Lord's hands, When we are not we must force the brother's to take our ministry in spite of any leading from the Lord.

I believe that this would be the major reason for most of the problems. I also believe that this trait became more manifest as time went on because at the end I believe he saw that in many respects his ministry had failed. He supposedly was releasing the high peak of the divine revelation but the recovery itself was having little increase and was stagnating. At this point he needed to work hard to prove that He truly had been the minister of the age.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by IDon'tKnow

I think something to consider when considering early Lee and later Lee is....

Dear Brother,

Your analysis seem very accurate to me in many ways.

Hope

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Brother,

Your analysis seem very accurate to me in many ways.

Hope

I agree, IDK. When we are in our proper place before the Lord, he can easily correct us, and no one has to get hurt, because it's all good.

Let's face it. Everyone is "wrong" in some way. We all need correction and change in some way. LSM/LC has their problems, and I have mine. It's not black and white. But if we are all humble and open, the Lord can correct and bless us all--often using a word from each other--without anyone having to relinquish that which we have which is genuinely true.

LSM's problem is that they have decided that they need not be corrected by anyone from the outside, in fact, they've even decided that such intrusions are most likely attacks from the devil.

That's just pride, plain and simple. And it's the kind of problem which has no means of self-correction. Like an alcoholic, they have an inevitable date with rock bottom.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I agree, IDK. When we are in our proper place before the Lord, he can easily correct us, and no one has to get hurt, because it's all good.

Let's face it. Everyone is "wrong" in some way. We all need correction and change in some way. LSM/LC has their problems, and I have mine. It's not black and white. But if we are all humble and open, the Lord can correct and bless us all--often using a word from each other--without anyone having to relinquish that which we have which is genuinely true.

LSM's problem is that they have decided that they need not be corrected by anyone from the outside, in fact, they've even decided that such intrusions are most likely attacks from the devil.

That's just pride, plain and simple. And it's the kind of problem which has no means of self-correction. Like an alcoholic, they have an inevitable date with rock bottom.

Amen!
While not true of all of the brothers and sisters with whom I meet, I must confess it to be true of most (or an issue with which they are currently struggling); because it is the message that comes out of "the ministry". I've been fellowshipping with a sister who seems very conflicted. She is one who left during a later turmoil (Titus Chu, I think?)... but wound up coming back. Now, some days, she is 110% for LSM, and other Lord's Table meetings I see her sitting to the side with the most miserable look on her face... I can see a battle inside of her, and I don't think she knows where to stand.

This is the sister who... had a rather heated discussion with me the other day. She was expounding what she believed to be a proper biblical principle with which she knew I wasn't in complete agreement (I don't find it helpful to argue, and I can be wrong; but I will voice my opinion... especially when cornered). In any case, the talk somehow turned to "the ministry", and while I was saying we need to refer to the Word of God as the true source for our understanding (and drew forth my Bible to emphasize it), she held forth her booklet from the video training in agreement. "That isn't the Word of God." I said. "I'm not so sure about that!" she rebutted... and then proceeded to elaborate with all the "life" she's gained from it. I couldn't believe it. How could I argue with her, if that is truly her position?

How many out there in the LSM churches believe that what WL/WN wrote was the Word of God? Don't they know that the Bible is written and complete? That it is as deadly a sin to take away from the Word as it is to add to it?

I'm praying for that sister; and I pray for all those who've allowed the ministry to bind their spiritual eyes. We all have a spirit, Saints.... and the Spirit speaks to each one.

Matthew 23:8-10 "But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ."


In Christ,

Neither First nor Last

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

While not true of all of the brothers and sisters with whom I meet, I must confess it to be true of most (or an issue with which they are currently struggling); because it is the message that comes out of "the ministry". I've been fellowshipping with a sister who seems very conflicted. She is one who left during a later turmoil (Titus Chu, I think?)... but wound up coming back. Now, some days, she is 110% for LSM, and other Lord's Table meetings I see her sitting to the side with the most miserable look on her face... I can see a battle inside of her, and I don't think she knows where to stand.

One of the most troublesome things about church conflicts and quarantines, is that bad decisions are thrust upon the saints which they never should have to make.

Think about how ugly a divorce is for young children. They are often forced to decide between parents, because the immaturity of one or both parents demands it from the children. Imagine the long-term effects of being forced to make such a decision. Just take a look at the crimes in our society and you will see every day the bad fruit of such divorces. No child should ever be forced to make such a choice.

Nearly every LC was forced to decide for or against TC. Rare indeed was the eldership which said we need to make no decision, because "all are ours, and we are of none." (see I Cor 3.18-23) Who in the LC's even knows how to apply these verses? Concerning the TC Quarantine, "the Lord knows the reasoning of the wise, that they are vain." Whistler was 1,000% "the wisdom of this world," but the Lord says all these "reasonings are vain."

I'll never forget the words of one dear sister, whom many considered was not very "spiritual." She said, "this quarantine is a fight between two ministries, and it should NOT involve the churches." Such wise words were not even thought of by all the "wise" brothers.

Many saints today are just hapless victims which have become "double-souled." Families and homes have been split and divided, just collateral damage of ministry wars.

Oh Lord be merciful, we are yours, and yours alone.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by IDon'tKnow

What I'm saying is that when we are accepting our proper God appointed position we can comfortably live by faith knowing that the Lord will take care of everything. When we seek to go above our position we can no longer have faith that Lord will take care of everything (Actually I think we can have faith in this so long as we accept that his taking care of things means returning ourselves to our rightful position), we have to work to maintain our position. Ergo when we are in our rightful position in the Body when something like Daystar goes belly up we can repent of wrong doing and trust that however it turns out (whether we are able to gather the money to rectify things or not) it will be according to His plan and we need not be anxious over it, If we are not in our proper position we must deal with the problem any way we can whether or not that involves performing more shady actions.

There has been focus on Daystar and it's nebulous history. What about the saints that were stumbled? Was there any concern for those that lost heart over how the Daystar situation was handled?
I realize it's been 35 years since and many meeting in the local churches came in after Daystar. Still there is a number meeting who can recall. Instead of searching for the one lost coin, it's swept out the door so the wind can blow the coin where it may.
This episode in history should be a learning experience and which direction not to take.

Terry

[IDon'tKnow]

Can I simply state what I believe is the importance of understanding Witness Lee. To me it is important to understand him because I refuse to believe that he was some kind of conman simply out to lord it over and lie off the saints.

Why? because I believe that would be too easy. If I say this I don't have to recognize that he was one who was zealous to study the word, pray, and in general pursue the Lord. And as such I don't have to face the fact that I can very well fall into the same error if I am not careful.

For my part I believe that the main cause of error on Witness Lee's part was that he (this is speculation on my part) probably wanted to do great things for the Lord and His move more than he wanted great things for the Lord and His move. I believe that one of the things which is required of us to be greatly used by the the Lord is a willingness to only moderately used by the Lord. If we are not willing to be the one talenter I do not believe we are qualified to be a five or two talented one.

[UntoHim]

What IDon'tKnow has written here reminded me of what the apostle Paul wrote to the Romans (chapter 10)

"For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God"

Witness Lee no doubt had a "zeal for God", but it is rather apparent now that most of this zeal was "not in accordance with knowledge". It was not in accordance with what we know in the Word of God, nor was in accordance with the lessons that have been learned throughout church history. Most importantly, much of what Lee and his followers have done is not in accordance with God's righteousness. There is a kind of righteousness there, but it is a righteousness that is "their own" - is is not of God. Of course we know this now upon hindsight, nevertheless, we would be remiss and even foolish not to point these things out, not just for the sake of truth but for the sake of those still trapped within the Local Church system.

In regards to this heartfelt statement:

To me it is important to understand him because I refuse to believe that he was some kind of conman simply out to lord it over and lie off the saints.

This kind of reminds me of a true story about this guy who was practicing medicine without a license (he was posing as a bonafied MD doctor - he was only a nurse or something) Anyway, he apparently helped a whole lot people over an extended period of time. Eventually somebody was seriously injured (or died, can't remember) because of his malpractice. Many of his "patients" came to his defense, even after it became known that he was a fraud.

Brothers and Sisters, only God can look into our hearts. I have no idea what was in Witness Lee's heart - only God could have known that. We can only "judge" (I use this term advisedly) men by what they say and do - this is especially applicable to our Christian leaders. Again, in hindsight, it is apparent that Witness Lee was neither qualified nor fit in character or education to be the sole leader, chief theologian, historian and "wise master builder" of an entire Christian movement.

-

[OBW]

First, I think that IDon’tKnow has reasonably questioned the reason for the apparent differences in “Early Lee” and “Later Lee.” This is in response to the posts currently flooding ABrotherINChrist’s blog. I know that I would rather any lengthy discussion be moved outside of my blog, keeping the blog for my posts and somewhat brief one-off responses.

There are two views of Early Lee (EL) v Later Lee (LL). And they depend on whether you look exclusively from the perspective of the US or you look back to Taiwan, and even China, and reject Lee’s excessively sanitized version of history in favor of the ones that suggest that he had effectively been kicked out of Taiwan when he came to America.

But even looking at it from the perspective that there was nothing before the US, I see problems.

First, there is a telling phrase in Hope’s post #19 (in ABC’s blog). “trying to be God's best in God's move on earth today” It says a lot. Maybe Lee did not actually orchestrate the burnings and other crazy things like the green and white pom-poms in that conference in Dallas in 73, or the rest of the craziness of what was called the “pots and pans” era. Maybe the first orchestrations were indirect when Max was sent out with a vague mission.

But where did the ideas of being “God’s best” and “God’s move on earth today” come from? Did a bunch of crazy people come up with these? Or did these help create a bunch of crazy people? After creating these crazy people, did standing by as they did crazier and crazier things help them become more grounded, or did it reinforce the craziness?

Hope,

I fully accept that you are giving what is probably one of the more accurate accounts, at least from what could be seen from Texas. But by ignoring what is reported as having happened before the US, are we incorrectly assuming that Lee’s diminutive stature and appearance as a bystander are not just part of that “inscrutable” nature of the Chinese, as even Lee called it, and that rather than holding strings of puppets, he was holding a few strings attached to a large net?

I like the picture of a net. If you have a net and pull just a little at one place, there is not much movement, but it fans out in many directions. It may be more subtle, but it is every bit as effective as that single string attached to the hand of the marionette.

What I am suggesting is that Lee did not hold puppet strings of control in the 60s and early 70s. But he did hold a small string on “God’s best” and “God’s move.” He pulled gently on a string concerning idols that, while not entirely incorrect, made our non-Christ distractions into huge issues. That string started a chain reaction of net strings moving around. Somewhere out in the net was a message about the burning of the occult books and objects. The fires were kindled. Did Lee orchestrate burnings, especially of such personal things, to control people? No. But did every action taken to be unique relative to the rest of Christianity, and to have a higher and purer stance (real or imagined) just fuel a craziness that put us more and more in the mindset to believe anything that Lee said, and to do anything he wanted, and to buy every word he spoke and printed?

Whether it was intentional or just happened, control does not occur overnight. There is no spell that is cast in one meeting. The kind of control that happened takes time.

One of the strongest battle cries of the LC is the claim that every denomination is saying they are of someone, or have some kind of name. But 400+ of the leaders signed a statement of allegiance to Lee. You may have been one of them. At least from what I recall of this discussion before, even in your reluctance and troubled mind, you may have been persuaded to go along. I am not pointing a finger at you. You are just a picture of what happened to us all. If you were unable to simply stand and say “this is wrong” then even your reluctance, and even if you did not sign, your own account suggests that there was still a significant fog.

And his grip just got tighter and tighter as the years went by.