Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching

Originally Posted by Drake

Unreg "The woman in Rev 12:1-5, is Israel. If you say that this woman is the church, you have a BIG problem, because the church is a VIRGIN BRIDE (2Cor 11:2) and this woman in Rev. is “pregnant”. Rev 12, is a “summary of Israel” that started in Gen 3:15, where we see the term: “her seed” or “seed of the woman”, meaning the woman has seed or gives birth. A “mother-Son” relationship and NOT a “Bridegroom-bride” relationship, because Israel gives birth to the child who is Jesus which is confirmed in Rev 12: 2,5 (read verses). The male child in verse 5, is Jesus and NOT “the stronger part of the church” which is W. Lee’s wrong interpretation.

Your argument here about the VIRGIN BRIDE giving birth is not a problem unless you also think Mary being a virgin and giving birth to Jesus is a problem. Your argument is a moral one not a biblically based one.

Unreg "Why is W. Lee’s interpretation wrong? Because as I explained in detail in my original post, W. Lee’s teaching does NOT have Israelology in his teaching (83% of the Bible is related to Israel), as a result of that, his Eschatology (33% is Prophecy in the Bible) is wrong and as a result of that, his Ecclesiology (result of NOT knowing Israeology) is also wrong. When you lack understanding or completely ignore, Israelology you will do exactly what W. Lee did in his teaching: "

When you put on the "83% of the Bible is related to Israel" glasses they become filters in your understanding and hermeneutics. Your starting point will then lead you into other misunderstandings and errors. For instance, if you believe that the woman of Revelation 12 is Israel and only Israel then you will have to conclude that the man child is Jesus and only Jesus. However, in so doing you will also have great difficulty with the timeline. To start off with Revelation 1:1 says clearly that the signs show the things that must take place. Revelation 12:1 shows the woman is a great sign, therefore it is a future event based from the time of the writing in the latter half of the first century, not before Christ was born as you assert. This is an error on your part because you have donned Israelology glasses that filter the complete biblical revelation.

If the man child is only Jesus then then you will also have trouble reconciling the Dragon being cast to the earth to devour the baby Jesus in the manger, the reason for the Dragon and one third of the angels being cast to earth, and why it takes Satan and one third of his angels to engage in infanticide in a failed attempt to wipe out Jesus. Also, you would have to violate the timeline of the future war in heaven v7-9 while leaving the obvious future event of the woman fleeing to the wilderness in v6 in place unless you want to bring that forward too prior to the birth of Jesus in which case you will have to explain where in history Israel fled into the wilderness and was nourished by God for a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

A third example of the trouble you will have reconciling the woman as Israel only and the man child as Jesus only is found in verse 5. To maintain the position you hold will require you to ignore the meaning of the word used for "caught up" which roots are based in selection and to pluck. Jesus resurrection and ascension do not use this word.

Unreg "it does NOT differentiate Israel from the church, it applies what is for Israel to the church (read his Life Studies, ex.Jer 31:31), making a big salad with Israel and the church."

I am not aware of anywhere where Brother Lee teaches replacement theology. However, in reference to Jerusalem 31:31 speaking of the new covenant of course the church is living in the new covenant. That was for Israel too but they obviously are not living in it unless they become believers like any other christian in this age of grace. As a nation, they will live in the new covenant in the coming Kingdom once the Lord returns and establishes it in the future and the nation repents and receives Him as the Messiah on that glorious day (Revelation 1:7).

In summary Unreg. First, let me say I appreciate your posts. They are focused on the teachings and you challenge them forcefully. That is commendable and a welcome addition to this forum.

Having said that your teachings on Revelation 12 are lacking. Just saying the woman is Israel because 83% of the Bible is related to Israel......even if that were proven valid perhaps this is part of the 17% that includes something more. The timeline in Revelation 12 (the birth of the manchild, the Dragon and one third of the angels cast to earth, the war in heaven, the plucking up of the man child, the wilderness experience of the woman, etc.) simply falls apart with your interpretation and the meaning of actual words must be ignored such as "caught up" when referring to the manchild.

Thanks
Drake

Answer: I can see that you are not understanding why I mention Israelology? It is because Israelology plays a big role (83%) in the Bible, since the Bible is a Judeo-Christian Book. Not because everything is Israel, just to be aware of that BIG point that we should consider when studying the Bible. Otherwise you come up with “free” allegories that you find in the Life Studies of W. Lee.

Another point you are misunderstanding is that the book of Revelation itself gives you an outline of the whole book in Rev 1:19. 19“Therefore write the things which you have seen (past, about Christ, chp 1), and the things which are (present, chp 2,3, the 7 churches), and the things which will take place (future, chp 4-22) after these things. Notice that the book of Revelation is the conclusion of the whole Bible plus is a prophetic book, meaning telling us things that will happen in the FUTURE, but still tells us things from the PAST and PRESENT (read verse Rev 1:19). You mention the conflict with the “time line”, this verse answers your question. Verse 19 is a general outline of Revelation with MANY INSERTIONS. (For further explanation see the paragraph about heptadic structure of Revelation below).

Also, you mention the confusion in Rev 12:5. By the way that verse is very controversial even among very good scholars. 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

The Son is Christ. The second half of verse 5, says “caught up” which is the same Greek word for “rapture” as in 1Thes 4:17. G.H. Pember is the first one that brought up that the “child” could ALSO INCLUDE the Body of Christ. Remember that we are talking already about Eschatology, the conclusion of Israel and the conclusion of the whole Bible. Additionally, please notice in order to understand properly the book of Revelation, you have to study the book of Daniel (these 2 books go together) because in this particular case, in between verses 5 and 6 of Rev 12, there is a gap or interval of time; which is the same gap in between verses 25 and 27 of Dan 9. This gap is verse 26. Putting these pieces together you can see the complete picture for this section. It is helpful to keep in mind that the church appeared miraculously in Acts 2 and will disappear (VERY SOON!!) also miraculously through the rapture (1Thes 4:16, 17; 1Cor 15:52), this is why Paul in 1Thes 4:18 says: “comfort one another with these words”, these are good news for the church!! In these Eschatological topics, you have to increase the resolution of your magnifying glass, otherwise you will miss what the Bible is showing us. This is the reason why the Lord Jesus Himself said Mt 5:17,18. W. Lee in his Life Studies teaches to focus on “main points only”, but Mt 5:17,18 says exactly the opposite.

Going back to Rev 12:1-5, verse 1 is explained for us by Jacob in Gen 37:9-11, confirming again that the woman is Israel. Further confirmation that the woman is Israel and NOT the church: Micah 4:9; 5:2; Isa 9:6; Gal 3:16; Jer 31:31; Gen 3:15 (the beginning). Please read carefully each one of the references.

Another helpful thing to be aware when studying the book of Revelation, is to realize the “heptadic structure” For the 7 seals, in between the 6th and the 7th seal there is an insertion which is chp 7. For the 7 trumpets, in between the 6th and the 7th trumpets there is an insertion which are chps 10-14. For the 7 bowls, in between the 6th and the 7th bowls there is an insertion which is chp 16. That means that Rev 12 is an insertion in the sequence of events happening in the book of Revelation (related to timeline).

Finally, a little historical background. The confusion of trying to make the woman, the church in Rev 12; comes from Origen: he started with allegorical interpretations. Then Augustine: he developed Amillennial Eschatology. Then the Medieval church with the quest for power, this led to the Holocaust in Germany and it will happen again in the Great Tribulation.

Interesting, several years ago, Rev 12 is what triggered my search for the Truth including several theologians in addition to the teachings of W. Nee and W. Lee; since both teachings were contradicting each other. Here is the portion of my testimony: I finished reading all the conclusion messages and other books of W. Lee; since I needed to continue studying, I continued with the collected works of W. Nee. Interestingly, I started to see differences in between W. Nee's and W. Lee's ministry. Additionally, since we live in these "last years" or apocalyptic age, I started to study Eschatology or the study of the "end times" ( 33% of the Bible is Prophecy and I knew almost nothing!). It became even more interesting when I was studying Rev 12:1-5 about the great sign of the woman in heaven... W. Lee says that the woman is the church (which is wrong), and W. Nee says the woman is Israel (which is correct). These are two different interpretations, so I wanted to find out which interpretation was correct, according to the whole Bible. (for the rest of my testimony you can see my original post).

I hope this explanation helps some. The proper way to study the Bible and to avoid to be deceived by following the wrong teaching or interpretation is: First to have prayer and relationship with the Author (God) of the Bible (Jn 5:39,40), then we need to take notes as we read and study the Bible (God’s Word), lastly we can check with the commentaries of the theologians; NOT just ONE author, but 3 or 4. And try to understand why the interpretations differ. We need to do our homework and NOT to blindly believe the commentaries, learn from the Berean believers (Act 17:10,11).