My situation with the Local Church

[Cal]

I agree with Drake. Before marriage is the time to be honest. Tell her your feelings about the whole situation. You don't have to use the word "cult," but you should tell her the LCM is not for you.

When you are driving and you enter an area where the streets get narrower and more potential hazards appear what do you do? You ease on the brakes. You slow down. You take things more carefully. That's what you should do now.

I don't want to make light of "young love," but I think age 21 is pretty young to know whether another person is right for you for the rest of your life. Feelings and desires (and perceived physical needs) are very strong at your age. But you haven't finished growing yet. You are not quite the final person you will be. Neither is she.

What you are experiencing has happened many times. An LCM young person meets someone they like outside the LCM and seeks to get them to join. Make no mistake, if she is typical she is counting on you joining her group. She is much less open to following you to another more mainstream group.

I have been at the marrying age in the LCM myself, and you have to understand how desperate these kids are to find a partner, and how their options are limited. They don't intend to hurt anyone, they are just trying to find relational happiness in a system that is not built for such a thing.

You don't need to rush. You have your whole life ahead of you. But you must understand this -- if you are not 100% for this group you should not consider marrying this girl until she leaves the group. You have to be on the same page with your life plans or your marriage will not work. It's hard enough to get along with someone else when your plans are congruous. Basic disagreement on life direction will just lead to unhappiness and probably divorce.

Pray and trust. Try to be at peace. Things will work out as they should if you do this.

[leastofthese]

OGOP-

I think you've received some good advice from each of these posts. Pray, Trust, be at Peace (it will be difficult at times, especially if other dudes are proposing to your girl). I went through a similar situation (in some ways) and also agree that having an honest conversation about where each of you "are at" is a good second step (after prayer) before getting any more serious with the relationship.

I wanted to share my own experience, as I feel God blessed me richly. I'm not any sort of MOTA, just a regular dude. This is not prescriptive, rather only descriptive of my experience:

1. I would read my bible daily - spend time in His Word
2. Pray to God (have conversations with my loving father who knows my heart and cares for me more than I can imagine)
3. Trusted that no matter what happens - His plan for me is better than my plan for myself
4. I wrote some of my prayers in a journal each day - a practice I've done on and off for years. It helps me focus and is also fun to go back and re-read.
5. Tried to focus on my relationship with Christ first (and above) my girlfriend.

The Lord strengthened me and lead me during this time. I felt he actually woke me early in the morning (and alert) with nothing else to do - so I had time to pray and seek his guidance.

I'll be praying for you. Send me a private message if you want to chat on the phone. I know it can be difficult when you don't have other believers that really understand the situation.

-least

[Cal]

Good advice, leastofthese.

As people we desire things: security, financial prosperity, relational satisfaction, success for our children, realization of our gifts, etc.

What I've found is as I'm walking with God, if any of these or other legitimate desires turn into something I do not trust God to take care of, then it becomes "lesson time" for me and I begin a wandering in the wilderness where I don't understand what's going on, why things aren't working out or when it will end. This has repeated over and over in my life.

It's God and me walking together. Then a desire or situation comes up. I don't trust God completely for it and try to work it out myself. Next thing I know I'm in the wilderness and wander around until I finally repent, submit and truly turn it over to the Lord.

Some of these experiences last days, some last years. They can overlap. But in a sense they are the sum total of my spiritual life.

God is always there saying "Trust me." I'm usually hesitating and trying to do it my way. He's patient and totally sure of himself. I'm not so sure of him, and wander until I am. That's the lesson. Over and over.

[Freedom]

I think others have provided good suggestions. Ultimately, your instincts have told you something is wrong with the LC, and it's better to have realized that sooner than later. I grew up in the LC, so I viewed a lot of the abnormalities as being completely 'normal'. Even when I began to question things, I still tended to dismiss inappropriate behavior as being ‘misguided’ or as still being done with “good intentions.” And that is exactly what I think the danger is in accepting the LC environment and trying to make it work. When you know something is wrong, you either have to act upon that instinct or dismiss it. The latter might work temporarily, but as others have said, what about 10 or 20 years from now?

In particular, I have seen a lot of meddling when it comes to relationships and dating. When I lived in a "brothers house," we were all made to sign forms that indicated we would not interact or involve ourselves in relationships with the opposite sex. I did so without a second thought and at the time, I thought this to be completely normal to restrict oneself like that. Obviously, I was completely naïve, and when you take a close look at what’s really happening, it seems young people are being brought under a certain kind of ideology, completely oblivious to the fact that what is being suggested is completely abnormal.

For the record, don’t accept the argument that somehow all the ‘chaos’ surrounding us when it comes to dating, relationships, etc., somehow validates or necessitates the LC ideology. That is what they will try to tell you. Simply put, adults have the right to make whatever decisions they want, and while such freedom in decisions making comes with an inherent risk, no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do. Part of being an adult is making decisions and living with them.

More than once, I saw LC elders attempt to arrange or destroy relationships as they saw fit. There is also an unspoken ‘rule’ in the LC that anyone seeking to involve themselves in a relationship should seek ‘fellowship’ with the elders before initiating anything. Those types of things, in particular, are the type of behavior that could easily be labeled as cult-like. I’ve seen such things taken to an extreme, and while I by no means attempt to make a blanket statement that applies to all of the LC, I find it ironic that given the LC is so worried about the cult label, that they wouldn’t distance themselves from practices that can be perceived as questionable. The conclusion I came to is that they have no interest in changing or correcting anything. They just assume that detractors and critics will leave or move on.

[Evangelical]

Witness Lee was against elders interfering in marriages so what you describe must be bad elders.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Ohio, Witness Lee said elders should not control or interfere in marriages. To my knowledge this does not happen in the local churches.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Witness Lee was against elders interfering in marriages so what you describe must be bad elders.

For the record, in the LC I was a part of, there was a couple who got married, but before the marriage happened, an elder tried to put it to a stop so he could match the brother up with a different sister. As far as I'm concerned such behavior on the part of the elder was completely unacceptable, and any group who doesn't want to be called a cult shouldn't engage in that kind of behavior. Ironically enough, this is not the only case of such meddling/interference that I am aware of. And there are plenty of cases I know of where a significant amount of guidance for a relationship/marriage was through 'fellowship' from the elders.

When I attended young people's conferences and throughout my college years, it was constantly reiterated to us that all relationships should happen through 'fellowship' with the elders. This is not fellowship that just came at a local level. It was widespread throughout the Southern California region that I'm from. Additionally, I received one-on-one 'fellowship' more than once about not engaging in any relationship without prior approval of the elders, and one of these occasions was in a LC 500 miles removed from the locality that I was from. So, as much as you or anyone else wants to deny it, there is a systemic problem that exists in the LC.

If you wish to claim ignorance to the problem, then I will assume you are telling the truth, however, when faced with the facts, why wouldn’t there be any desire or concern about a change being needed? All I have seen coming from the LC direction are attempts to rationalize or downplay the problem. At the very least, the fact that multiple people from multiple locations have relayed similar experiences of inappropriate interference and meddling, that would be indicative of the systemic problem that I have referenced. And we are even told that WL spoke against this. Why then is it the predominant culture in the LC? Why does the FTTA forbid relationships? Why do the elders so freely offer ‘fellowship’ about relationships when approached? All the evidence points in a certain direction, and is indicative of this being a culture/ideology that the LC wishes to embrace. Sorry to be so frank, but when this is the culture/environment you were born and raised in, it provoke a strong reaction when there are claims made that no such problem exists in the LC.

[Evangelical]

Have you pointed these elders to Witness Lee's books about this and if so what was their response?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Witness Lee was against elders interfering in marriages so what you describe must be bad elders.

Apparently Witness Lee also taught that Christians should not sue other Christians.

[OGOP]

Thank you everybody for the replies, its gotten way more attention than I thought it would. More importantly, thank you for the prayers and offers of counsel.

aron: Conversely, we see "And Jesus could do nothing because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:58; Mark 6:5). With anxiety, fear, resentment, you can block God's will from being accomplished. So be at peace. Pray, but pray with rejoicing. Petition, but petition with thanksgiving. Repent, but repent with gratitude. God will move. God loves to move. Let Him surprise you! It all starts with a rejoicing heart.

thank you for the verses. To be honest its really hard to turn to God in a situation like this. Like it just feels weird asking Him for guidance about leaving the only church I've ever known. I agree though, I need to overcome it and turn to God.

DistantStar: "I do not wish to make light out of you situation, but I can't help but notice your choice of words for the LC."

Haha no worries, that wording was intentionally chosen to poke a little fun.

Nell: On the other hand, the backlash you experienced is only the beginning. It won't get any better than it is now. Can you imagine starting your married life together without telling her the truth about how you feel about the LC? If you can't have that conversation now, when can you? Two or three years later there may be children involved! She will find out how you feel and blame you for deceiving her.

Marriage plans are definitely on hold from my perspective until we can deal with the LC. I'm really worried, she is the nicest most caring person I've ever met and then its like when the subject of the "church life" comes up she's a different person. Its really scary.

[OGOP]

What you are experiencing has happened many times. An LCM young person meets someone they like outside the LCM and seeks to get them to join. Make no mistake, if she is typical she is counting on you joining her group. She is much less open to following you to another more mainstream group.

This was something I noticed early on. Inter-faith marriages are something that, although not exactly common, they do happen. Inter-denomination marriages are even more common.

For example: Lets say you have a baptist guy, and a catholic girl. Usually you see either the guy or the girl, change denominations and its no big deal. I've even seen some couples where they alternate each week where they go. There might be some disgruntled family members but 95% of the time, dating somebody of a different denomination is completely fine and normal.

What I noticed immediately about the LC was that the non LC member HAD to "convert" and join the church, or the relationship wouldn't happen. The LC member never leaves.
That was a red flag again for me. Gave a very cultish vibe.

OGOP

[OGOP]

**reposting because I think the last one didn't post***

Thank you everybody for the replies, its gotten way more attention than I thought it would. More importantly, thank you for the prayers and offers of counsel.

aron: Conversely, we see "And Jesus could do nothing because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:58; Mark 6:5). With anxiety, fear, resentment, you can block God's will from being accomplished. So be at peace. Pray, but pray with rejoicing. Petition, but petition with thanksgiving. Repent, but repent with gratitude. God will move. God loves to move. Let Him surprise you! It all starts with a rejoicing heart.

thank you for the verses. To be honest its really hard to turn to God in a situation like this. Like it just feels weird asking Him for guidance about leaving the only church I've ever known. I agree though, I need to overcome it and turn to God.

DistantStar: "I do not wish to make light out of you situation, but I can't help but notice your choice of words for the LC."

Haha no worries, that wording was intentionally chosen to poke a little fun.

Nell: On the other hand, the backlash you experienced is only the beginning. It won't get any better than it is now. Can you imagine starting your married life together without telling her the truth about how you feel about the LC? If you can't have that conversation now, when can you? Two or three years later there may be children involved! She will find out how you feel and blame you for deceiving her.

Marriage plans are definitely on hold from my perspective until we can deal with the LC. I'm really worried, she is the nicest most caring person I've ever met and then its like when the subject of the "church life" comes up she's a different person. Its really scary.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OGOP

What I noticed immediately about the LC was that the non LC member HAD to "convert" and join the church, or the relationship wouldn't happen. The LC member never leaves.
That was a red flag again for me. Gave a very cultish vibe.

OGOP

That does not happen in the local churches. There are no forced conversions of a non-LC person to the LC. Many brothers and sisters in the church are married to people who attend a denomination or are not attending church at all.