Tis the season

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Because they weren't worshiping God, Drake. They were worshiping a golden calf who represented another "god" because they felt God had let them down.

The people who are celebrating Christmas are worshiping Christ.

Some people can celebrate Christmas as something unto Christ. Others will see it as a form of idol worship and will be stumbled. You are not wrong to say you can worship Christ in this, but if your brother is stumbled by your eating things sacrificed to idols then you are no longer walking in love.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You are not wrong to say you can worship Christ in this, but if your brother is stumbled by your eating things sacrificed to idols then you are no longer walking in love.

You make a good point. But I have a hard time believing anyone would be stumbled by the fact that I or anyone celebrates Christmas. Unless you consider celebrating Christmas as being stumbled, which I don't.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You make a good point. But I have a hard time believing anyone would be stumbled by the fact that I or anyone celebrates Christmas. Unless you consider celebrating Christmas as being stumbled, which I don't.

When you say "anyone" are you including children, babes in Christ, new converts, those who are barely being rescued from hell?

One thing I know for sure, celebrating Christmas is not about me. My concern is what is best for my family, what is best for the kids I teach at school, what is best for the new believers in the church.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When you say "anyone" are you including children, babes in Christ, new converts, those who are barely being rescued from hell?

Yes. I don't see how celebrating Christmas blocks or confuses the gospel message at all.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Yes. I don't see how celebrating Christmas blocks or confuses the gospel message at all.

Well here is where i have an issue.

The church has a Christmas play, which focuses on Jesus birth, so far so good. In that play they have the Christmas celebration as a backdrop and context, OK, no big issue. They emphasize that the "reason for the season" is Christ. Sounds good.

But you can't do that without including some of the Christmas songs (not hymns, not spiritual songs) to help with the setting, maybe even the contrast.

But once you have done all this you have legitimized the entire holiday. How do you now draw the line? How do you tell your kid it is OK to listen to the church's spin on the holiday, but not to the world's? How can a kid make an informed decision on their own. As a result you opened the door for the kid to now watch every Christmas TV show and movie. Honestly, what is the difference, they are all morality plays, some with a Christian moral, some with a human moral. This in turn opens the door to all of those insidious commercials designed to brain wash you into the worship of materialism.

The point is simple, you could have the most pure and inspired Christmas play around, but by doing that you have opened the door for the children in the church to watch every Christmas play. You could have a wonderful "Christmas tree" virtually devoid of idols (though the tree itself is referred to as an idol) but now you have opened the door to every single Christmas tree out there, with all of the idols. That includes Santa, and Reindeer, etc.

You present Jesus as the reason for the season, but now it comes across as just one view, not that different from a man in a red suit who watches you, decided if you are good or bad, and then gives you presents.

Now you have adults who tell you they went to church as a kid, but don't believe. To them, once they realized Santa wasn't real it was akin to deciding Jesus wasn't real. That is the confusion. It is certainly real. It may not be justified, but it is certainly used as an explanation (you can say excuse) for why the gospel message is confused. To be fair to those who have come to this conclusion, they were in Church where they were expecting to hear the gospel and the truth, and they were the ones that were introducing them to Christmas, the whole story of Christmas. Maybe they emphasized Jesus birth, but they sure didn't dissuade them from any other aspect of the holiday.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well here is where i have an issue.

Now you have adults who tell you they went to church as a kid, but don't believe. To them, once they realized Santa wasn't real it was akin to deciding Jesus wasn't real. That is the confusion. It is certainly real. It may not be justified, but it is certainly used as an explanation (you can say excuse) for why the gospel message is confused. To be fair to those who have come to this conclusion, they were in Church where they were expecting to hear the gospel and the truth, and they were the ones that were introducing them to Christmas, the whole story of Christmas. Maybe they emphasized Jesus birth, but they sure didn't dissuade them from any other aspect of the holiday.

Let me start out by asking, ZNP, and let me say I have a lot of respect for your intelligence and for your seeking for answers.

But let me ask. Have you ever known anyone who did not come to salvation because they were confused by Christmas?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Let me start out by asking, ZNP, and let me say I have a lot of respect for your intelligence and for your seeking for answers.

But let me ask. Have you ever known anyone who did not come to salvation because they were confused by Christmas?

I have no idea, but I have known very many people who compare believing in Jesus to believing in Santa Claus. In my own experience preaching the gospel it was the one thing I hated the most. It would be like trying to defend Witness Lee and having people continually bring up the lawsuits.

You can't embrace Christmas without embracing all that it includes. If an unbeliever walks down the street and sees a big "Merry Christmas" posted outside of a church they are justified in assuming that the church embraces Christmas.

So let's look at this very strange doctrine of Santa Claus, what is the point? A young child is led to believe, by the people they trust the most (parents, adult relatives, older siblings, and church) to believe in Santa Claus. At some point in their life they will realize that there is no such person, it is a bogus story designed to make the holiday seem magical and mysterious. But does this young child come to that conclusion, or do they conclude that the purpose is to teach you that people lie and you should not be naive. They get this shot of "don't trust anyone who you thought you were supposed to trust" right before they start hearing the gospel, from the very same people.

It is as though the whole world is laughing at the child, "ha, ha, you moron, are you that naive" (though it might only be a few 5th graders at school) followed by "let me tell you about the gospel".