Tis the season

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Yes. I don't see how celebrating Christmas blocks or confuses the gospel message at all.

Well here is where i have an issue.

The church has a Christmas play, which focuses on Jesus birth, so far so good. In that play they have the Christmas celebration as a backdrop and context, OK, no big issue. They emphasize that the "reason for the season" is Christ. Sounds good.

But you can't do that without including some of the Christmas songs (not hymns, not spiritual songs) to help with the setting, maybe even the contrast.

But once you have done all this you have legitimized the entire holiday. How do you now draw the line? How do you tell your kid it is OK to listen to the church's spin on the holiday, but not to the world's? How can a kid make an informed decision on their own. As a result you opened the door for the kid to now watch every Christmas TV show and movie. Honestly, what is the difference, they are all morality plays, some with a Christian moral, some with a human moral. This in turn opens the door to all of those insidious commercials designed to brain wash you into the worship of materialism.

The point is simple, you could have the most pure and inspired Christmas play around, but by doing that you have opened the door for the children in the church to watch every Christmas play. You could have a wonderful "Christmas tree" virtually devoid of idols (though the tree itself is referred to as an idol) but now you have opened the door to every single Christmas tree out there, with all of the idols. That includes Santa, and Reindeer, etc.

You present Jesus as the reason for the season, but now it comes across as just one view, not that different from a man in a red suit who watches you, decided if you are good or bad, and then gives you presents.

Now you have adults who tell you they went to church as a kid, but don't believe. To them, once they realized Santa wasn't real it was akin to deciding Jesus wasn't real. That is the confusion. It is certainly real. It may not be justified, but it is certainly used as an explanation (you can say excuse) for why the gospel message is confused. To be fair to those who have come to this conclusion, they were in Church where they were expecting to hear the gospel and the truth, and they were the ones that were introducing them to Christmas, the whole story of Christmas. Maybe they emphasized Jesus birth, but they sure didn't dissuade them from any other aspect of the holiday.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well here is where i have an issue.

Now you have adults who tell you they went to church as a kid, but don't believe. To them, once they realized Santa wasn't real it was akin to deciding Jesus wasn't real. That is the confusion. It is certainly real. It may not be justified, but it is certainly used as an explanation (you can say excuse) for why the gospel message is confused. To be fair to those who have come to this conclusion, they were in Church where they were expecting to hear the gospel and the truth, and they were the ones that were introducing them to Christmas, the whole story of Christmas. Maybe they emphasized Jesus birth, but they sure didn't dissuade them from any other aspect of the holiday.

Let me start out by asking, ZNP, and let me say I have a lot of respect for your intelligence and for your seeking for answers.

But let me ask. Have you ever known anyone who did not come to salvation because they were confused by Christmas?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Let me start out by asking, ZNP, and let me say I have a lot of respect for your intelligence and for your seeking for answers.

But let me ask. Have you ever known anyone who did not come to salvation because they were confused by Christmas?

I have no idea, but I have known very many people who compare believing in Jesus to believing in Santa Claus. In my own experience preaching the gospel it was the one thing I hated the most. It would be like trying to defend Witness Lee and having people continually bring up the lawsuits.

You can't embrace Christmas without embracing all that it includes. If an unbeliever walks down the street and sees a big "Merry Christmas" posted outside of a church they are justified in assuming that the church embraces Christmas.

So let's look at this very strange doctrine of Santa Claus, what is the point? A young child is led to believe, by the people they trust the most (parents, adult relatives, older siblings, and church) to believe in Santa Claus. At some point in their life they will realize that there is no such person, it is a bogus story designed to make the holiday seem magical and mysterious. But does this young child come to that conclusion, or do they conclude that the purpose is to teach you that people lie and you should not be naive. They get this shot of "don't trust anyone who you thought you were supposed to trust" right before they start hearing the gospel, from the very same people.

It is as though the whole world is laughing at the child, "ha, ha, you moron, are you that naive" (though it might only be a few 5th graders at school) followed by "let me tell you about the gospel".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So let's look at this very strange doctrine of Santa Claus, what is the point? A young child is led to believe, by the people they trust the most (parents, adult relatives, older siblings, and church) to believe in Santa Claus. At some point in their life they will realize that there is no such person, it is a bogus story designed to make the holiday seem magical and mysterious. But does this young child come to that conclusion, or do they conclude that the purpose is to teach you that people lie and you should not be naive. They get this shot of "don't trust anyone who you thought you were supposed to trust" right before they start hearing the gospel, from the very same people.

Totally agree with you about Santa Claus -- parents do all the work, including making cookies and leaving out a glass of milk, and then like some mystical character gets all the credit.

Part of training up a child included writing thank you notes to those who give them gifts. How are kids supposed to thank Santa?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You can't embrace Christmas without embracing all that it includes.

Not true at all. That's like saying you can't embrace America without embracing all it includes: crime, injustice, etc. Or you can't embrace Christians without embracing all they include: sin, hypocrisy, weak faith, etc.

I can celebrate Christmas without celebrating the Playboy Christmas issue.

Let's try not to act smarter than we really are.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Not true at all. That's like saying you can't embrace America without embracing all it includes: crime, injustice, etc. Or you can't embrace Christians without embracing all they include: sin, hypocrisy, weak faith, etc.

I can celebrate Christmas without celebrating the Playboy Christmas issue.

Let's try not to act smarter than we really are.

The context of my comment was your question about it confusing the gospel. A person in the world walks down the street, they see "Merry Christmas" outside a church with a Christmas tree all decorated and a manger scene.

To the unbeliever the church is embracing all that Christmas includes. You can argue they aren't doing that, to the unbeliever they are. You have therefore confused the gospel.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

To the unbeliever the church is embracing all that Christmas includes. You can argue they aren't doing that, to the unbeliever they are. You have therefore confused the gospel.

How do you know what unbelievers are thinking?

I don't agree in general with your thesis that the gospel is confused. As I've said A LOT more good comes from having Christ in Christmas than would be done by taking him out. Christmas is part of our culture. By the time you explain to some unbeliever why you don't celebrate Christmas they are liable to be more confused than they would be otherwise.

I just think you are overthinking things. The LCM has eradicated Christmas, and it hasn't exactly caused their gospel campaigns to take off.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

How do you know what unbelievers are thinking?

When you preach the gospel one on one, they respond. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

A LOT more good comes from having Christ in Christmas than would be done by taking him out. Christmas is part of our culture. By the time you explain to some unbeliever why you don't celebrate Christmas they are liable to be more confused than they would be otherwise.

I just think you are overthinking things. The LCM has eradicated Christmas, and it hasn't exactly caused their gospel campaigns to take off.

I totally AGREE!!! I think it's a great opportunity for true believers to talk about Christ from His Birth to His Resurrection to His Promise of coming again.

I sometimes plant a little nugget in people telling them, Jesus came the first time and guess what? He's coming again.... sooner than later.

And btw... while I didn't do it this year, for several years, I would write scriptures on index cards during the month of October. Then on Halloween evening, I would sit outside with a bowl of candy and cards. I wrote scriptures for the youngsters under 10 and for the older ones. And would pray quietly for each kid and their parents.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So let's look at this very strange doctrine of Santa Claus, what is the point?

While I understand your point, try to not overstate it.

Santa Claus is not a "doctrine." He's a mythical figure like Superman or Harry Potter. I do think parents can oversell him. My oldest boy believed in Santa well past ten years-old. That made me uncomfortable. His younger brother talked him out of it. I understand the parallels between Santa and God. We teach kids about this invisible, benevolent, powerful person. Then we go "just kidding!"

At the same time, I believed in Santa...then I didn't. I realized it was just a fun story and my gifts came from my mom (especially since the gift tags were in her handwriting). Santa was just some make-believe magic and that didn't bother me. And it certainly did not cause me to think "maybe God doesn't exist either." I understood the difference between Santa and God.

So to cite Santa as an indication that Christmas is evil? That's overdoing it I think. If Santa is the worst thing about Christmas we are doing fine.

[Cal]

C.S. Lewis believed that stories of magic naturally helped tell the story of God. Kids want to believe in magic. Why? Because there is magic in God. God can work miracles. God can override the boring physical laws of the universe and make something wonderful happen. God can do whatever he wants.

Moses worked magic. So did Elijah and Elisha. God worked magic with Daniel. And Jesus did all kinds of magic. Then, so did the apostles.

Where is the magic now? We teach kids about the mundane laws of the universe and about dry Christian doctrines with no sparkle behind them. Everything is cut-and-dried and in order. No wonder kids long for Santa, Superman and Harry Potter.

One thing about the LC in the early days was it was magical. Where is the magic now? God is still magical. It's us who have grown jaded, like kids who no longer believe in Santa Claus or much else for that matter.

Kids can afford to play make-believe magic with Santa because there is true magic in God.

[ZNPaaneah]

The story of Jesus birth is magical, great story, and I am very happy that many churches use Christmas as an excuse to tell this story, have children do a children's play, etc. Some of the best hymns we have are concerning Jesus birth.

The resurrection is magical.

Baptism -- Noah's ark, the Red Sea, etc. are magical.

Israel leaving Egypt is magical.

Santa Claus is a very poor and ugly sham for a magical story. Even the author of the Harry Potter series who tried to refer to many if not all of man's mythology wouldn't stoop so low as to refer to Santa.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Santa Claus is a very poor and ugly sham for a magical story. Even the author of the Harry Potter series who tried to refer to many if not all of man's mythology wouldn't stoop so low as to refer to Santa.

Ugly? Whatever. Anyway, that's your opinion. It might even be mine someday. But he's not going anywhere so we might as well make the best of things.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Santa Claus is a very poor and ugly sham for a magical story. Even the author of the Harry Potter series who tried to refer to many if not all of man's mythology wouldn't stoop so low as to refer to Santa.

I'm not here to defend Santa in any way, but for you to use the Harry Potter series, which introduced an entire generation to witchcraft and its many spells, is more than I can endure.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

C.S. Lewis believed that stories of magic naturally helped tell the story of God. Kids want to believe in magic. Why? Because there is magic in God. God can work miracles. God can override the boring physical laws of the universe and make something wonderful happen. God can do whatever he wants.

Moses worked magic. So did Elijah and Elisha. God worked magic with Daniel. And Jesus did all kinds of magic. Then, so did the apostles.

Where is the magic now? We teach kids about the mundane laws of the universe and about dry Christian doctrines with no sparkle behind them. Everything is cut-and-dried and in order. No wonder kids long for Santa, Superman and Harry Potter.

One thing about the LC in the early days was it was magical. Where is the magic now? God is still magical. It's us who have grown jaded, like kids who no longer believe in Santa Claus or much else for that matter.

Kids can afford to play make-believe magic with Santa because there is true magic in God.

YES!! YES!! I am even going to go out on a limb here! The reason (I believe) kids and people are intrigued with 'magic'... and the likes of Superman, superheroes, Harry Potter especially, is because when God created man, He created him (man & woman) perfect, in His Image and Likeness. We are all on the same page on this one.

Satan in his sleezy, crafty way, introduced witchcraft to the pagans. And since he is the ruler of the darkness of this world and has powers himself, he has done a number on many, many people. I always love how God told Moses to throw the staff on the floor in front of Pharaoh which turned into a snake. Then Pharaoh's magicians did the same thing and their stick turned into a snake but Moses snake ate up their snake !

Had man not sinned, I truly believe we having our Father & Creator's DNA in our blood, would be doing many 'magical' things we cannot do now. For instance, FLYING. Think about it. Due to sin, in order to get around, man invented the wheel. ships, the car, planes, trains. These vehicles while very useful also are pollutants. So what was once beautiful pristeen oceans, lakes and rivers, now adays we have to worry about flesh eating bacteria!!

I remember pondering on the question why would God give us dominion over the fish of the sea when Adam and Eve were not hunters of animals before the fall.

I often think "I bet they could swim deep in the ocean without breathing apparatus and talk to the fish, play with them and magnify the Glory of God to them."

To us God has supernatural powers. But His Power(s) are natural to HIM. And as His children, we inherited His powers but due to sin, He took those powers away from us until we are totally transformed and Glorified in Him.

Just think, one day and soon I expect, the dead in Christ are going to rise up from their graves in Glorified bodies. And we who are alive will follow suit. We will defy gravity in our Glorified bodies to meet Jesus in the air!!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Santa Claus is not a "doctrine." He's a mythical figure like Superman or Harry Potter. I do think parents can oversell him. My oldest boy believed in Santa well past ten years-old. That made me uncomfortable. His younger brother talked him out of it. I understand the parallels between Santa and God. We teach kids about this invisible, benevolent, powerful person. Then we go "just kidding!"

All societies use all-knowing mystical beings to manipulate children's behavior. "He knows if you've been good or bad, so be good for goodness sake."

When I studied Brethren history, Neatby (excellent history btw and available online) pointed out the Exclusives use of BugBears in order to manipulate their members. A BugBear, like our Bogeyman and in some ways our Santa Claus, was an imaginary being invoked to frighten children in order to manipulate their behavior.

The LCM may have discarded Santa, but they have long perpetuated their own repertoire of BugBears. The resulting fears which so grip her members are much harder to shake than any Santa Claus myth. Talk to any ex-member.

Hate to keep harping on this, but it was the evils wrought by the LSM "Office" and Witness Lee himself on dear brother John Ingalls which helped to release me from all of their entrenched BugBears. Doing what they did, there is no way any sane man would still believe they are God's best, and His only "true" church testimony.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

So to cite Santa as an indication that Christmas is evil? That's overdoing it I think. If Santa is the worst thing about Christmas we are doing fine.

I didn't cite Santa to show that Christmas is evil, though I think that is valid. I quoted it to point out how it confuses the gospel, particularly to young people in the 13 to 18 age range. You have taught them not to trust you. Then you want them to receive the gospel from you.

It is irrelevant if you or I did not use this as a reason not to receive the gospel. If it confuses some, if it hinders some then that is proof that it confuses the gospel.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I didn't cite Santa to show that Christmas is evil, though I think that is valid. I quoted it to point out how it confuses the gospel, particularly to young people in the 13 to 18 age range. You have taught them not to trust you. Then you want them to receive the gospel from you.

Theoretically that makes sense, as I said. But I've heard no evidence that it actually happens. I gave my own experience. I think kids understand the difference between Santa Claus and God. Santa is a fun myth. God is the real creator.