Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[Evangelical]

Sometimes it helps to consider what sort of pagan influences we are talking about in relation to Jezebel and see some pictures. So I provide some websites with pictures below. Jezebel deceived God's people to worship Baal who was the sun god. In Catholic cathedrals there are various symbols pointing to the ancient religions and in particular worship of the sun god.

This is explained here:


The round disc in the crescent moon was a symbol of ancient Babylon, and is found in all the ancient religions. In Catholic cathedrals, these symbols are very prominent, often depicting a round form of mother and child within the crescent moon.

The rebirth of the sun god was celebrated by the eating of round bread in Babylonian times, and was common in Mithraism and Osiris worship. Historian Alexander Hislop says this:

And here, in a so-called Christian Church, a brilliant plate of silver, “in the form of the SUN,” is so placed on the altar, that everyone who adores at the altar must bow in lowly reverence before that image of the “SUN.” Whence, I ask, could that have come, than from the ancient SUN-worship, or the worship of Baal? And when the wafer is placed so that the silver “SUN” is fronting the “round” wafer, whose "roundness" is so important an element in the Romish Mystery, is only another symbol of Baal, or the sun, what can be the meaning of it, but to show to those who have eyes to see that the “Wafer” itself is only another symbol of Baal.i

i. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons (New Jersey: Loizeauz Brothers, 1959): 120-121.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_paganism_Catholic_mass_silver


For pictures to verify the connection between Catholicism and Paganism, see here:

http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/roman-catholic-sun-worship-eucharist.html


Various other pagan symbols are described here:
http://romancatholicbeliefs.org/roman-catholic-church-pagan-god-symbols/

I also found this a helpful read:
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/23245-queen-of-may-the-spirit-jezebel-is-hiding-behind-these-altars


If we were to consider the question of who or where is Jezebel today, the religious institution which fits that description the best is the Roman Catholic church. Of course, this does not mean any individual Christian or group is not in danger of following the same path, nor does it excuse idolatry in general which may take various forms. There are many different kinds of idolatry yet the one related to Jezebel specifically must be the Catholic church. Of all the kinds of idolatry this one is the most dangerous as it substitutes genuine Christianity for a counterfeit. That is, it not only replaces God but also deceives a person into thinking the idol is God. People think they are worshiping God but instead are worshiping the counterfeit sun-god. It also stirs up genuine believers of God to kill other genuine believers - the Catholic church is responsible for the deaths of many over past history.

We should remember that with the Jezebel is also an Ahab. Without Ahab, Jezebel has no power in the church. The ones who defend the Catholic church are like Ahab's giving Jezebel free reign. Genuine Christianity has its roots in Judaism. Counterfeit Christianity has its roots in paganism.

[ZNPaaneah]

Great.

The Bible says several things about Jezebel we can all agree on:

1. She calls herself a prophetess -- so she presents herself as some sort of religious leader. Cultic leader.

2. She both teaches and seduces -- her form of teaching involves psychological ploys that play on people's fantasies, lusts, greed, etc.

3. She specifically teaches the servants of Jesus to commit fornication, that is to have another Lord other than Jesus. This is idol worship.

4. In addition to this she convinces these servants to eat things sacrificed to idols. Financially support this idolatrous practice.

Now it may be true that we can see this very clearly in the history of the Catholic church, but why should we limit this form of deceit to the Catholic church? There is nothing in the Bible that says we should.

If Witness Lee did these four things then why wouldn't you diagnose this as being the same spirit?

[Nell]

As an aside, I've noticed that regardless of the topic, many times the discussion turns to the "ground of locality" (GOL?) topic, as this one has below.

Quite a few years ago in Houston when I first began to meet with the LC, I heard Benson Phillips share the following:

"If we concentrate on Christ, the church will come out. If we concentrate on the church, nothing will come out." Has a ring of truth, huh? I'm not sure that he would make that statement today, but he can't "un-say" it now. Maybe it was prophetical because I certainly can't see a golden lampstand anywhere. In fact, all the "church talk", including Witness Lee's church talk, has not brought forth the promised results.

On the other hand, Paul told us "that I may know Him." I think that's the best idea yet. We don't really need to worry about "doing church" right. If we know the Lord, if we follow Him and obey His voice, if we repent for our sins and keep right relationships with the members of the body, then Christ will build His church and it will be revealed for all to see.

The "Ground Of Locality" doctrine is like a song with one note. It's promoted like a "be all, end all". There may be a few on this forum who agree on one side or the other but it's doubtful that anyone will be convinced to switch sides. Even if there is agreement of some sort, to what end? To use Benson's phrase, has the church "come out"? I don't see it.

I remember the old hymn "On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand."

Back to Jezebel...

Nell

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The Bible says several things about Jezebel we can all agree on:...

Not really because Witness Lee never taught or practiced worship of the sun god or Baal like Catholics did.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Not really because Witness Lee never taught or practiced worship of the sun god or Baal like Catholics did.

That is fine, if you wish to have the most narrow definition possible.

But what about other forms of idolatry and other forms of worship and other false Gods?

If a person did the exact same thing that Jezebel did, only they taught and seduced the saints to a form of idolatry that was not identical to the worship of the Sun God but rather the worship of money or some other false "source of life", then what?

To me they are both the same breed of deceiver. Just like we have different breeds of pig, and different breeds of camel, and different breeds of dog.

A German Shepherd is not identical to a Great Dane, but they are both the same species, they are both dogs, and there is a tremendous overlap between the two.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is fine, if you wish to have the most narrow definition possible.

But what about other forms of idolatry and other forms of worship and other false Gods?

If a person did the exact same thing that Jezebel did, only they taught and seduced the saints to a form of idolatry that was not identical to the worship of the Sun God but rather the worship of money or some other false "source of life", then what?

To me they are both the same breed of deceiver. Just like we have different breeds of pig, and different breeds of camel, and different breeds of dog.

A German Shepherd is not identical to a Great Dane, but they are both the same species, they are both dogs, and there is a tremendous overlap between the two.

There are other examples in the Bible. What about Balaam in Revelation 2:14, or the Pharisees? They were all involved in idols.
I believe Jezebel is a specific thing, and doesn't cover all situations. I would not say that Lutheranism for example is affected by Jezebel, because they got rid of the evil things in Catholicism. But I would say they are the daughter of the prostitute. You really should try to stop pinning every false thing in the Bible on Witness Lee.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There are other examples in the Bible. What about Balaam in Revelation 2:14, or the Pharisees? They were all involved in idols.
I believe Jezebel is a specific thing, and doesn't cover all situations. I would not say that Lutheranism for example is affected by Jezebel, because they got rid of the evil things in Catholicism. But I would say they are the daughter of the prostitute.

Yes, Balaam is also a definite thing and doesn't cover all situations as are the Pharisees.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You really should try to stop pinning every false thing in the Bible on Witness Lee.

I have not tried to pin every false thing on Witness Lee.

Rather I have looked at the items we know he was responsible for

1. Fabricated a story about Watchman Nee. Without that lie you could never sell the story about WN being the MOTA, and without that what use would "being his closest coworker" be?

Maybe you should stop ignoring it.

2. Numerous examples of him accusing others of blasphemy, stoning them to death, and then seizing their vineyards. Max R and his wife because they knew and objected to the sins of his sons. JI, AK, and the Anaheim elders because they knew about the sins of his sons. The sister's rebellion because who knows, they might know about the sins of his sons.

Maybe you should stop ignoring this blatantly evil and unrighteous behavior.

3. Damnable heresies taught by Witness Lee -- Ground of the Church, and MOTA

You really should stop being an apologist for these heresies.

4. Making merchandise of the saints -- Standing orders for books they don't want, signing a loyalty pledge to WL, ignoring the separation of church and ministry, etc.

5. Lawsuits that are in direct rebellion to the apostle Paul's fellowship.

You really should stop trying to defend this behavior lest you share in his judgement.

[Evangelical]

Drake is right you have a tendency to revert to flawed arguments, misapplying Jezebel to the US government and then to Witness Lee.

In post number 3 I said:

Jezebel represents the corruptive influences within the denominations or the local church

It is possible for Jezebel to corrupt a local church, after all Thyatira was a local church and not a denomination.

However the "elephant in the room" here is clearly the Roman Catholic church which has been recognized by many (well before Lee/Nee came along) as fitting the description of a church which tolerates Jezebel.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now it may be true that we can see this very clearly in the history of the Catholic church, but why should we limit this form of deceit to the Catholic church? There is nothing in the Bible that says we should.

If Witness Lee did these four things then why wouldn't you diagnose this as being the same spirit?

ZNP

Because using your interpretation method for Jezebel anyone can justify any belief from the Bible.

I'll illustrate using an entirely unrelated example. If I believe that UFOs exist and want to prove their existence from the Bible then I can start looking for examples that fit the description of a UFO and sure enough I find the examples I seek in Elijah, Ezekiel, Daniel, the star over Bethlehem , and Jesus when taken up in the cloud, and stuff in the book of Revelation. Since UFOs and those biblical descriptions look the same to me then why shouldn't everybody diagnose those as being the same thing?

You know how you want the story to end so you create a narrative using the Bible to justify your ending.

You did this twice with Jezebel in this thread. Once with equating the US governnent to Jezebel and her 850 prophets to scientists and pollsters. Then again below to Brother Lee using the same flawed argumentation.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Because using your interpretation method for Jezebel anyone can justify any belief from the Bible.

Drake

I don't find ZNP to be any more extreme than Lee was.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP

Because using your interpretation method for Jezebel anyone can justify any belief from the Bible.

I'll illustrate using an entirely unrelated example. If I believe that UFOs exist and want to prove their existence from the Bible then I can start looking for examples that fit the description of a UFO and sure enough I find the examples I seek in Elijah, Ezekiel, Daniel, the star over Bethlehem , and Jesus when taken up in the cloud, and stuff in the book of Revelation. Since UFOs and those biblical descriptions look the same to me then why shouldn't everybody diagnose those as being the same thing?

You know how you want the story to end so you create a narrative using the Bible to justify your ending.

You did this twice with Jezebel in this thread. Once with equating the US governnent to Jezebel and her 850 prophets to scientists and pollsters. Then again below to Brother Lee using the same flawed argumentation.

Drake

No, here is why that does not apply.

1. Requiring that the person call themselves a prophet or prophetess is very limiting.

2. This person must teach the believers idol worship, they must present a substitute to Jesus as Lord. That is extremely limiting.

3. This person must convince the servants of Jesus to eat things sacrificed to idols. This is extremely limiting.

The definition I have is that the person must teach the servants of Jesus to commit idol worship and also to give money to support this idol and that they must present themself as a prophet of God.

Now if you don't want to call that person a Jezebel, that is fine, but what do you want to call them? It is clear that their behavior is condemned by the Bible, that is not "justifying any belief" that is clear and simple word.

Now if this person also used a worldly court system to "stone believers for blasphemy" and then "steal their vineyard", how about now? What is your reason to say they aren't a Jezebel?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP...
You know how you want the story to end so you create a narrative using the Bible to justify your ending.

You did this twice with Jezebel in this thread. Once with equating the US governnent to Jezebel and her 850 prophets to scientists and pollsters. Then again below to Brother Lee using the same flawed argumentation.

Drake

I never equated the US government to Jezebel, what I said was that Jezebel employing 850 prophets to run the country of Israel is what the US government does. The point was not that the US government is Jezebel, the point is that Jezebel brings in worldly methods to run the church.

You think you know how the story ends so you just fill in the ending you assumed I was going to say.

I did equate Witness Lee to Jezebel but I did not use the reference to the 850 prophets, though I could have by referencing the FTTT and the use of accounting methods, etc.

No, I used the following points to equate Witness Lee to Jezebel

1. He refers to himself as a prophet of God, even the apostle who alone has the authority to appoint and fire elders. This is based on the lie he perpetrated about Watchman Nee's excommunication. His mass firing of the elders in Taipei is reminiscent of Jezebel cutting off the prophets of God. His use of PL to be the president of LSM is similar to Jezebel hiring prophets of Baal.
2. He had 450 elders sign a loyalty pledge to him, in direct opposition to the epistle of James in which he said above all not to make an oath. I consider this idolatry. Very reminiscent of the Lord's word to Elijah about those He had that "had not bowed the knee". Signing a loyalty pledge to Witness Lee means they bowed the knee to Witness Lee.
3. I also consider the standing orders, Daystar, and other business schemes to be teaching the servants of Jesus to eat things sacrificed to idols.

I appreciate that you and others might disagree. However, I consider his support of PL even at the cost of ripping the church in half, with the "Max Rebellion", "Sister's rebellion" and John Ingals fiasco to be the rotten smell that proves this is one ugly mess.

4. I also base it on the "leaven" he hid in the pure word of God -- MOTA and Ground of the church.

5. And I base it on the similarity between Jezebel getting some elders to accuse Nahor of blasphemy and then stone him to death in order to steal his vineyard to Witness Lee establishing a legal defense fund so that he could sue Christian ministries who could not afford lawsuits, drive them into bankruptcy and then bash their brains in.

Who has seduced you that you do not obey the truth? Don't you think it is important that we know who it is that did this?

I view Jezebel as the woman who hides leaven in the meal. That would cause it to ferment. You can say that the Roman Catholic Church is a big hunk of fermented or moldy cheese. That is fine. But why is the leaven that Witness Lee introduced not viewed with the same concern as the Catholic church which has little or nothing to do with you personally?

The fact that the woman "hides" the leaven indicates it is a deceitful work, difficult to discern. It is not easy to "see" leaven, but it is easy to see the effect -- the bread is puffed up, the cheese smells, etc. Surely you can see that doctrines like MOTA and Ground of the church have the effect of "puffing up" and the lawsuits give the Witness Lee sect a "stinky smell".