Mere Christianity or Degraded Christianity?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Does not Protestantism itself have an "us and them" mentality in regards to the believers in Catholicism?

Well, Protestantism is not a conscious thing with a mentality. And it is not monolithic. But from an evangelical point of view antagonism is toward Catholics is rare these days. Most Christians are trying to find ways to get along. This is not cynical. It's simply doing the best we can with the situation as it is.

I mean, I guess we could do what you do and declare ourselves right and everyone else wrong. But if everyone did that it would be total war. So we'll leave the self-righteous condemnation of other Christians to the fringe groups, and hope the world notices as little of that as possible.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We also transcend the divisions.

In your dreams.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, Protestantism is not a conscious thing with a mentality. And it is not monolithic. But from an evangelical point of view antagonism is toward Catholics is rare these days. Most Christians are trying to find ways to get along. This is not cynical. It's simply doing the best we can with the situation as it is.
I mean, I guess we could do what you do and declare ourselves right and everyone else wrong. But if everyone did that it would be total war. So we'll leave the self-righteous condemnation of other Christians to the fringe groups, and hope the world notices as little of that as possible.
In your dreams.

Of course - why we would try to get along with Satan?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Of course - why we would try to get along with Satan?

Well, I might ask the same thing in regards to you. I see Satan working in you and the LCM. I see evidence of Satan in all corners of Christianity. I also see evidence of God. That's just the way it is.

You talk about degraded Christianity, but you ignore your own degradation. You think you are something different. You aren't. We are all in this together.

The Catholic church may have elements of Thyatira, but there is no doubt the LCM is the spitting (ahem) image of Laodicea. I could just as easily ask why should I associate with something the Lord is going to spit out of his mouth. But what would be the point of that other than to wage war?

I understand having a problem with certain beliefs and practices of the Catholics. What I don't understand is why you condemn them for their errors yet give yourselves a pass on your own.

You are strict with others and tolerant of yourselves. That's backwards.

[Cal]

I want to point out that Evangelical's extreme position does not reflect the mindset of all LCMers. I have been in contact with several old friends still in the LCM in the last few years. Although they still personally feel the LCM is a proper way, even right way, they did not push that on me.

One elder told me, "We don't have a monopoly on God."

Another friend told me something to the effect that I had the right to follow my conscience and he had no right to demean that.

Another friend chuckled when I mentioned how the LCM calls Christianity "Babylon." He said, "I don't think I've heard the word 'Babylon' mentioned in fifteen years."

Obviously there are different attitudes in the LCM and Evangelical is on the extreme fringe even of that spectrum. His black-and-white, hard-edged dismissal of all groups outside the LCM reads more like a legalistic interpretation of Witness Lee's most intolerant speakings, rather than the reasoned view of a seasoned LCMer.

I wonder what he thinks of Witness Lee's late-life repentance from being so judgmental toward other Christians:

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/rep...edTheMark4.pdf

Witness Lee's words, translated from Mandarin:

"(Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God),…we coworkers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn…, too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included; I confess that, I had, for this matter and before the Lord, a very painful repentance. I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…(a long pause) You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! Of course, denominations are wrong. The sectarianism is what God condemns the most. However, the Lord still hopes that all His children… do not have such condemnation. Such an understanding and analysis will require much effort. I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…"

Please read the commentary in the PDF as well.

I don't really mind that some in the LCM think they have a "better way." That attitude is not uncommon. It's just human nature to think the group you belong to does it better. Why else would you belong to it?

But going beyond that... Claiming that only you are right and all others are wrong, minimizing your own failures and maximizing those of others, goes beyond the pale. Not only is it the wrong spirit, it directly demeans the work of God being done in so many different manifestations of his Body.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I want to point out that Evangelical's extreme position does not reflect the mindset of all LCMers. I have been in contact with several old friends still in the LCM in the last few years. Although they still personally feel the LCM is a proper way, even right way, they did not push that on me.

I concur, but, of course, my point of reference in the GLA are those brothers quarantined by the Blendeds.

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I want to point out that Evangelical's extreme position does not reflect the mindset of all LCMers.

Thanks for pointing this out. What you say is true. Much of what Evangelical says I've not heard at the LC near me. It's just good to get a grip of reality again.

Slightly off topic, but not: Some people say that the Israeli-Arab issue will be resolved the moment both sides wash each others feet.
Reading that quote of Witness Lee made me think about that. Only in humility will there be true unity.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I want to point out that Evangelical's extreme position does not reflect the mindset of all LCMers. I have been in contact with several old friends still in the LCM in the last few years. Although they still personally feel the LCM is a proper way, even right way, they did not push that on me.

One elder told me, "We don't have a monopoly on God."

Another friend told me something to the effect that I had the right to follow my conscience and he had no right to demean that.

Another friend chuckled when I mentioned how the LCM calls Christianity "Babylon." He said, "I don't think I've heard the word 'Babylon' mentioned in fifteen years."

Obviously there are different attitudes in the LCM and Evangelical is on the extreme fringe even of that spectrum. His black-and-white, hard-edged dismissal of all groups outside the LCM reads more like a legalistic interpretation of Witness Lee's most intolerant speakings, rather than the reasoned view of a seasoned LCMer.

I wonder what he thinks of Witness Lee's late-life repentance from being so judgmental toward other Christians:

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/rep...edTheMark4.pdf

Witness Lee's words, translated from Mandarin:

"(Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God),…we coworkers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn…, too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included; I confess that, I had, for this matter and before the Lord, a very painful repentance. I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…(a long pause) You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! Of course, denominations are wrong. The sectarianism is what God condemns the most. However, the Lord still hopes that all His children… do not have such condemnation. Such an understanding and analysis will require much effort. I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…"

Please read the commentary in the PDF as well.

I don't really mind that some in the LCM think they have a "better way." That attitude is not uncommon. It's just human nature to think the group you belong to does it better. Why else would you belong to it?

But going beyond that... Claiming that only you are right and all others are wrong, minimizing your own failures and maximizing those of others, goes beyond the pale. Not only is it the wrong spirit, it directly demeans the work of God being done in so many different manifestations of his Body.

This is funny that now you seem to be defending the LCM, and pretending there is a "good side" and a "bad side". You know that your friends would tone down their language in the hope of bringing you back into the fold.

Roman Catholicism et al. is not a "different manifestation of the Body". They don't believe that. We don't believe that. Only people in fantasy land riding their rainbow unicorns believe that all denominations are just different manifestations of the Body.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is funny that now you seem to be defending the LCM, and pretending there is a "good side" and a "bad side". You know that your friends would tone down their language in the hope of bringing you back into the fold.

No, they are just mature. I can't imagine any of them talking like you do. Maybe when they were 20 years old and stupid, but not now.

And I'm not an absolutist. There are many good things about the LCM. I just target the destructive things.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I might ask the same thing in regards to you. I see Satan working in you and the LCM. I see evidence of Satan in all corners of Christianity. I also see evidence of God. That's just the way it is.

You talk about degraded Christianity, but you ignore your own degradation. You think you are something different. You aren't. We are all in this together.

The Catholic church may have elements of Thyatira, but there is no doubt the LCM is the spitting (ahem) image of Laodicea. I could just as easily ask why should I associate with something the Lord is going to spit out of his mouth. But what would be the point of that other than to wage war?

I understand having a problem with certain beliefs and practices of the Catholics. What I don't understand is why you condemn them for their errors yet give yourselves a pass on your own.

You are strict with others and tolerant of yourselves. That's backwards.

The "others" are illegitimate "churches". Roman Catholicism is not a church, nor Lutheranism, etc. They are organizations of man.

They hold to the teachings but there is no life in them.

We cannot be saved by joining an "ism".

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The "others" are illegitimate "churches". Roman Catholicism is not a church, nor Lutheranism, etc. They are organizations of man.

Like the "Recovery" isn't an organization of man...

And I'm not defending Catholicism nor Lutheranism. I'm defending the right of congregations to exist and to hold their beliefs in good conscience without people like you telling them they are "false."

Please try to keep up.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Like the "Recovery" isn't an organization of man...

And I'm not defending Catholicism nor Lutheranism. I'm defending the right of congregations to exist and to hold their beliefs in good conscience without people like you telling them they are "false."

Please try to keep up.

I know that, you are trying to maintain unity by defending the divisions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I know that, you are trying to maintain unity by defending the divisions.

Igzy just defended your LSM/LC division, and its right to exist and hold its beliefs.

Paul in Romans 16 admonishes us to identify and "mark" those Blended Brothers at LSM who "make divisions and causes of stumbling."

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I know that, you are trying to maintain unity by defending the divisions.

I don't consider them divisions. Division implies animosity. Different names and different ways to meet don't imply division. If they did Paul wouldn't have written Romans 12.

What you seem to miss is that your insistence on your way or the highway is more divisive than the denominations.

Instead of just continuing to repeat the same assertions and acting obnoxious, why don't you try mounting an intelligent argument that actually shows respect for the intelligence of the listener? Like I said, 99.9999% of Christians would not be interested in what you are peddling. Do you think they are all stupid? What, are they just supposed to believe you are right just because you say you are? Where's the evidence, the fruit, that you are correct? I don't see it. I just see a tiny group that is a mixture of good and bad, but has some serious dysfunction, all enabled by some extremely specious reasoning.