The Psalms are the word of Christ

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 119 shows us grace, as the NT believer enjoys Christ as God's law. Yet Psalm 1 shows us vanity as the psalmist tries vainly to keep God's law. But why isn't it Psalm 1 showing grace, and Psalm 119 showing vanity? Because Witness Lee says so.

What tripe. What rubbish.

Please quote which verses in Psalm 1 shows us grace, then.

And which verses in Psalm 119 shows us vanity.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Please quote which verses in Psalm 1 shows us grace, then.

And which verses in Psalm 119 shows us vanity.

No, you mis-read me. What I meant was, Psalm 1 shows us Jesus. The tree planted by the water, whose leaf never withers, that is Jesus. See Revelation 22:2 for confirmation: the tree by the river, whose fruit bears in season ("whatever he does will prosper", Psa 1:3), whose leaves heal the nation. This Blessed Man in Psalm 1 becomes the Enthroned King in Psalm 2. For confirmation see Deuteronomy 17:14-20.

This theme continues strongly through the whole 150 chapters of Psalms. Of course we could nit-pick; Psalm 51 comes to mind, but even Psalm 51 at the end, echoes Jesus to Peter, "You will turn, and strengthen the brothers".

The "I will obey your word" of Psalm 119:17 is Jesus to the Father. "He was obedient to the death, even the death of the slave". And so on. It's not that complicated. Brother Lee made it complicated.

Brother Lee's euphemism for the Psalms was "complex". It's not complex; it's Jesus. At His core, He was the Simple, or Pure Man. Never deviated. Always obeyed. Grace is we the disobedient goats, seeing the Obedient Lamb, and by this faith we're saved. The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us. "By grace you have been saved, and that through faith" That's why the writer of Hebrews profusely quoted the psalms, I think 8 citations to start off, then said, "We see Jesus" in 2:9. By faith, we see Jesus, and by faith we're saved. Not complicated.

My objection was that brother Lee didn't want to see Jesus. He either saw the OT psalmist vainly trying to please God, or the NT believer enjoying grace. But there's a gaping hole in the middle of his sermon. Brother Lee going through Psalms was like a bull-dozer going through a flower garden: the goal was achieved, and he got to the other side, but it didn't look good when he was done.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

the writer of Hebrews profusely quoted the psalms, then said, "We see Jesus" in 2:9. By faith, we see Jesus. Not complicated..

This probably deserves an addendum. Hebrews 2:9 says, We see Jesus made a little inferior to the angels, through the suffering and death. This Suffering and Obedient Man on Earth, fully in accord with the Will of the Father in Heaven, is played out in the Psalms.

And, We see Jesus crowned with glory and honor. This also is seen, notably in Psalm 2 but referenced often in poetic text. In fact, the Obedient Son on Earth, suffering righteously on behalf of the unrighteous, is merely the earthly representation of the Eternal King. Psalm 1 and Psalm 2 show two different views, or modes. But the Person was the same. The people who said, "Isn't this Jesus?? Don't we know His mother, sisters and brothers??" didn't realize Who this was. But the demons did, and trembled. As did, notably, the angels in heaven. The Roman centurion realized this in detail, and after explaining his understanding, told Jesus, "Just speak a word and my servant will be healed." Jesus marveled at not only his faith but his understanding.

And Jesus, to validate Himself while yet on earth, said, "If you don't believe in Me, believe in the works which I do." That He was the proto-typical, prophesied Righteous Man was proved unequivocally by actions: the blind who saw, the deaf who heard, the dead who were raised. This Man was none other than the long-sought-for Messiah. His resurrection, ascension and enthronement in eternal glory merely continued the process which began with His impeccably pure behavior on earth, and the healing power which flowed therefrom. (Thus, death wasn't failure and shame, but liberation for all from the pangs of death.) When Jesus referenced "the works" that He did, it echoed Psalm 1's "Whatever He does will prosper". . . Jesus' word had power on earth because it was fully in accord with the Father's speaking in Heaven. Jesus was the (singular) man with a pure heart, who was not just a hearer but a doer of the word (i.e. He was the Incarnate Word).

"He (the Son, on earth) trusted Him (the Father, in Heaven); let Him save Him now." (Matt 27:42,43; cf Psa 22:8) The whole of the Psalms plays out this simple narrative. When you see this, "He rescued Me because He delighted in Me" of Psalm 18:9 becomes clear: we see Jesus, a little inferior temporarily to the angels, then raised (rescued) by the Father and given glory. "God has now made Him both Lord and Christ". It's thematically consistent with the repeated NT narrative, and is applicable through the OT source scriptural text (inc Psalms) without too much trouble at all.

Witness Lee noted the earthly suffering and eternal glory of Jesus in his footnote to Hebrews 2:9, but failed to connect it to the Psalms. Yet that epistle's copious citation of psalms previous to the verse could have clued him.

[Drake]

NOTE FROM MODERATOR:

The quote attributed to aron was actually from Evangelical:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I would say the old testament footnotes are incomplete, many verses have no commentary for them or the commentary is very bland. It would be interesting to investigate why Lee did not think these verses could be attributed to Christ. I don't know if that is possible by reading his books, without asking him himself.

No shame to our fine feathered friend Drake - when so many posts are made over such a short period of time it can be easy to attribute a post to the wrong person.
***However, this is one good reason to use the "Quote" feature provided by the forum system. ***

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Aron) "I would say the old testament footnotes are incomplete, many verses have no commentary for them or the commentary is very bland. It would be interesting to investigate why Lee did not think these verses could be attributed to Christ. I don't know if that is possible by reading his books, without asking him himself."

Aron,

I think it is great that you see Christ in all the Psalms. I mean it. I personally do not believe every verse of every Psalm, prophecy, or detail of the law refer to Christ specifically. Luke 24:44 indicates that the Old Testament was about Christ and some verses specifically referred to Him and He told His disciples which ones those were. Nevertheless, I am delighted when someone sees Christ where I never would have. Happens all the time.

I have a personal interest in prophecy, specifically end time. Brother Lee did not cover the books of the Prophets to the extent I would have preferred. I really value his perspective so I wanted more from him on that. Yet, it was not his main burden so I dived into them myself and over the last 10 years researched them extensively reading from many sources. What I now understand is not in the footnotes or the Life-studies though much of it is. Do I now find fault with the minister because he did not include everything I now understand about the prophecies in the RcV footnotes in the books of the Prophets?

That would be a ridiculous expectation.

If I feel strongly about it I could create and publish my own footnotes or write a book. So could you.

Brother Lee spoke thousands of messages on nearly every biblical topic and on some he went deep because it was according to his leading and burden before the Lord. He spoke hundreds about the Psalms alone. Other topics he only scratched the surface and so he asked the saints to research them (such as the significance of the minerals in the New Jerusalem).

The principle here is that every revelation given, all knowledge imparted, each experience we go through is for the building of the Body of Christ. So treat it as such and the Lord will multiply it as grace upon grace and there will we find our reward. If we do not invest wisely what He has imparted to us He may take it away when He returns and we would lose our reward.

May the Lord show you more and more and reward you at His coming.

Drake

[Drake]

Thanks untohim.

Sorry for my error.

Note to aron still applicable based on his entries.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I have a personal interest in prophecy, specifically end time. Brother Lee did not cover the books of the Prophets to the extent I would have preferred. I really value his perspective so I wanted more from him on that. Yet, it was not his main burden so I dived into them myself and over the last 10 years researched them extensively reading from many sources. What I now understand is not in the footnotes or the Life-studies though much of it is. Do I now find fault with the minister because he did not include everything I now understand about the prophecies in the RcV footnotes in the books of the Prophets?

That would be a ridiculous expectation.

If I feel strongly about it I could create and publish my own footnotes or write a book. So could you.

Brother Lee spoke thousands of messages on nearly every biblical topic and on some he went deep because it was according to his leading and burden before the Lord. He spoke hundreds about the Psalms alone. Other topics he only scratched the surface and so he asked the saints to research them (such as the significance of the minerals in the New Jerusalem).

The principle here is that every revelation given, all knowledge imparted, each experience we go through is for the building of the Body of Christ. So treat it as such and the Lord will multiply it as grace upon grace and there will we find our reward. If we do not invest wisely what He has imparted to us He may take it away when He returns and we would lose our reward.

May the Lord show you more and more and reward you at His coming.

Drake

Drake,

I addressed this issue in a previous post.

Originally Posted by aron

Unfortunately my presentational skills aren't up to the job, but I wanted to put out an idea: Look at the Psalms as a kind of spiritualization of the historical narrative, which spiritualization was picked up and amplified by the NT writers. A classic example is of Melchizedek. A historical character, briefly inserted into the narrative of events. Then the psalmist gives it a kind of mystical spin: "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." The NT writer says, "Hey! This is Christ!" and then amplifies it.

We don't know how much of David's original work remains, and how much of it was redacted by later generations. But the psalms as spiritual commentaries were clearly accepted and used by the NT writers, and by Jesus Himself. For example, "You are gods" from Psalm 82, quoted by Jesus to the Jewish antagonists. They were gods, to whom the word of God came (John 10:35), but they died like men, because they disobeyed and corrupted the commands (82:7). They fell like every other corrupt ruler. Jesus' use of scripture turned the charge back against the Jews: they'd claimed Jesus blasphemed, but He said that His works showed that He was one with the Father (John 10:25,37,38). So who were they? Corrupt, and due to fall. "You are gods" was merely a prelude to "you will die like men".

Another example that comes to mind is "Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me." from Psalm 42:7. Compare this to Jonah 2:3 "You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me." Somebody appears to be copying, here. How could David the landlubber psalmist seize upon a sea-faring narrative? Because the enemy coming against him like a "flood", like "waters", is a common poetic metaphor. And this is picked up on in the NT: "Just like Jonah was in the heart of the sea, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth". To go down into the depths of the sea is a metaphor, a spiritual picture, of the descent into Hades.

Or the commonly cited "rock of my salvation" in the Psalms, "which rock was Christ" according to Paul. One could pick out many examples; I know Augustine of Hippo did in his commentaries. Let's leave it at this: there's nothing in the NT reception of the Psalms that indicates that some of them were "fallen", or "natural", or "concepts". No, rather the NT usage indicates that they were perceived as revelatory. There was an invitation here, to be filled in Spirit with the words of Christ. And needless to say, WL spurned this invitation.

I've written several hundred posts on this thread and have only touched maybe 40 of the 150 psalms. And of many other books in the Bible I'm ignorant & thus don't presume to have the complete or last word, and don't expect Lee to have it either. What I do protest, here, is seen in the bolded part at bottom: that Lee's saying the scriptural word is "low, fallen, natural" and thus not revelatory of God's Christ. There's no NT precedent for this reception of scripture. We're not talking about one or two verses here; we're talking about the majority of 150 chapters. Yet these chapters are the most quoted section in the NT. But Lee wasn't interested. He had his "God's economy" and "processed God" to attend.

[Drake]

Aron) "let's leave it at this: there's nothing in the NT reception of the Psalms that indicates that some of them were "fallen", or "natural", or "concepts". No, rather the NT usage indicates that they were perceived as revelatory. There was an invitation here, to be filled in Spirit with the words of Christ. And needless to say, WL spurned this invitation."

On what scriptural basis do you assert that there is nothing natural in any Psalm? You would need to include, at minimum, the same for the books of the law and the prophets. And we know that there is much low natural fallen concepts expressed there.

Low, natural, and fallen, concepts are revealed too, not just Christ. Revelation is not just about Christ.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron) "let's leave it at this: there's nothing in the NT reception of the Psalms that indicates that some of them were "fallen", or "natural", or "concepts". No, rather the NT usage indicates that they were perceived as revelatory. There was an invitation here, to be filled in Spirit with the words of Christ. And needless to say, WL spurned this invitation."

On what scriptural basis do you assert that there is nothing natural in any Psalm? You would need to include, at minimum, the same for the books of the law and the prophets. And we know that there is much low natural fallen concepts expressed there.

Low, natural, and fallen, concepts are revealed too, not just Christ. Revelation is not just about Christ.

Does that just apply to the psalms or does this apply to every book in the Bible?

If every single book of the Bible reveals low, natural, fallen concepts then why does WL emphasize this with Psalms?

We need to see that, on the one hand, the book of Psalms was written according to the human concept, and on the other hand, it was written according to the divine concept. If we do not see this, our understanding will be natural, and the Psalms will be understood by us according to the human concept. (Witness Lee, Life Study of Psalms)

The issue is not that fallen natural concepts are revealed in the Psalms, but that according to Witness Lee some of the Psalms are about this.

Psalm 1, however, is according to the natural, human concept. David thought that the one who meditated in the law day and night would prosper in everything. (Witness Lee, Life Study of Psalms)

According to Witness Lee the writer of the Psalm (David) was natural and mistaken.

David's logic in Psalm 37 is very natural. (Witness Lee, Life Study of Psalms)

According to Witness Lee the writer of many of the Psalms (King David) was writing based on natural concepts and using natural logic.