Do you think Christianity is degraded?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

And where in the New Testament does any of the apostles say this?

Witness Lee's definition is not supported by the New Testament. The word "religion" is never used in the way he describes nor can it ever be defined in his way. He has confused the "Judaizers" with the Jewish religion.

In the church in Smyrna we learn of "the synagogue of Satan", people who say they are Jews and are not. You can't call them the Jewish religion, they aren't. Yes, the synagogue of Satan is accurately described by Witness Lee's definition, but he has incorrectly defined religion as being the synagogue of Satan and that is a mistake.

Witness Lee made a big deal of how the "sheep and goats" do not refer to the believers and unbelievers, but rather to two types of unbelievers. That definition is crucial for understanding eternal salvation.

Well, in the same way he has mashed up "the synagogue of Satan" with all religion. This is a mistake.

To equate pure religion with "the synagogue of Satan" is to denigrate pure religion.

ZNPaaneah, most people in the world use the term religion to mean a system of man-made beliefs and rituals. Continuing to argue your point of view from the "correct" view of the meaning of religion (as taking care of orphans and widows), is not logical. The Bible says only God or Christ gives (eternal) life. Religions don't give life. Actually, even taking care of orphans and widows does not give eternal life. Both false religion and true religion cannot give life. We are against religion on the basis that it does not give life, everyone will die someday and people without life will go to hell for eternity. Care for widows and orphans all you like but when they die they will go to hell without Christ.

I am really itching to start a discussion with you about "sheep and goats" and a strange doctrine resulting from that which says we can be saved by giving someone a cup of water. But perhaps for another time.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, most people in the world use the term religion to mean a system of man-made beliefs and rituals. Continuing to argue your point of view from the "correct" view of the meaning of religion (as taking care of orphans and widows), is not logical. The Bible says only God or Christ gives (eternal) life. Religions don't give life. Actually, even taking care of orphans and widows does not give eternal life. Both false religion and true religion cannot give life. We are against religion on the basis that it does not give life, everyone will die someday and people without life will go to hell for eternity. Care for widows and orphans all you like but when they die they will go to hell without Christ.

I am really itching to start a discussion with you about "sheep and goats" and a strange doctrine resulting from that which says we can be saved by giving someone a cup of water. But perhaps for another time.

We are discussing "degraded Christianity". I have already said that in this thread my standard as to what is and is not degraded is the fellowship of the apostles. I don't care what "most people think". I care what does the NT say about religion. The apostles used this term, so what did it mean. Witness Lee tries to tell you that it was used by the apostles to mean one thing, but that is not true. It wasn't used by them to mean that at all.

Instead the term Judaizers did mean that, Jezebel, Balaam, Nicolaitans, synagogue of Satan. I don't disagree that the truth of what Witness Lee is teaching is not in the New Testament, but I disagree with applying it in a broad brush to all religion. This is a huge point and the way Witness Lee operated. He takes a genuine truth, like the ground of the church, shows all the verses, spends a lot of time proving there is this truth, and then misapplies it. The ground of the church was purchased by the Lord's blood. The idea that it is therefore the boundary line of a city which may change 20 different times over 100 years, which is subject to the vagaries of the world, is absurd. Yes, there is a ground of the church, that is a very well established truth in the Bible, but saying that this ground is defined by the boundary of a city is based on the poorest possible evidence for such an important truth.

By applying words concerning "the synagogue of Satan" to "pure religion" Witness Lee justifies all kinds of sins. He slanders all other believers. He teaches against having any charitable giving other than to the Living Stream Ministry for standing book orders, chairs, motor homes, tennis rackets, legal defense teams, etc. You are straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I am really itching to start a discussion with you about "sheep and goats" and a strange doctrine resulting from that which says we can be saved by giving someone a cup of water. But perhaps for another time.

I think it would help everyone on the forum if you introduced yourself so that we knew a little bit more about who we are fellowshipping with.

One brother on this forum is from Southern California, another is from Austin Texas, another is from Dallas, two are from Florida, one is from Ohio, another from Toronto and another from Seattle.

I was from both Houston Texas and NYC. I also was with the church in Irving TX for 18 months and Odessa Texas for several years. Most of the ones who post the most came into the church in the 70s. We were in every Life Study either with WL or else in the video conference. Many of us went to the FTT in Taipei in the 80s.

I would estimate that everyone on this forum (with the possible exception of Awareness -- I still have no idea what he accepts) accepts 90+% of Witness Lee's doctrines. Our primary issue is with the practice (the sins, the lawsuits, the slander, the investment scams, the bullying, etc). It is not so much what they say but what they do. For many of us on this forum who post regularly, we knew that through our speaking we had taught this way to many people, so we felt accountable for the hypocrisy.

It seems to my observation that you think we are on this forum because we read a snippet of Witness Lee's that we disagreed with. Look at the testimonies, many gave 20 years or more to the LRC. Besides being in the church for 20 years I served in LSM for more than 5 years (printing, construction, training). For 2 1/2 years I was full time.

So I think it will eliminate a lot of misunderstandings if you just did a better job of introducing yourself and perhaps trying to understand us a little as well. Thanks

[TLFisher]

It's one thing to call non-LC/LSM Christianity degraded yet LC is very much part of Christianity. Perhaps it's A concept that only through LSM publications can one become zealous for Jesus. That one can be in fellowship with those who have the pulse on what God's move on the earth is.
Call it whatever you like. Knowing how some in the Local Churches think very highly of it's movement, there are many Christians beyond the LC fellowship who are just as zealous as one might find within the LC fellowship.
Going back to the question of ZNP, is Christianity degraded? Yes, all of it is since man is imperfect.

[testallthings]

NEUTER WORDS

The word religion is found twice in the letter of James. In itself it doesn't have a positive or a negative connotation. It needs other words to define it. This is not something new. The New Testament has many examples of words that although in themselves “neuter” may have striking and sometimes opposite meanings.

Think about the word god/God. The word might refer to the only and wise God and to the god of this world (Satan). Or consider the word father/Father. The word often refers to God our Father but also to Satan the father of lie.

In the letter of James we have the example of the wisdom that comes from above and the wisdom that is devilish.

Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

For James, religion can be vain (1:26) or pure (1:27).

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

[Ohio]

Christ was never against religion per se, but against hypocrisy.

Nee and Lee twisted this simple fact in order to condemn all others but themselves.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by testallthings

NEUTER WORDS

By all means, you can say that "pure religion" is different from "vain religion". Witness Lee does not make this distinction.

This anti religion flavor in the LRC is very influential. Why is it that their are no charitable works in the LRC? It is because Witness Lee labeled them as "religion" which has a negative connotation. Even if it is "good" it "distracts" you from the central lane. What is the "central lane"? It is attending his trainings, paying his fees, buying his books, supporting his ministry and supporting his legal defense team. The only "charity" is a donation to his ministry or you can invest money with him and then wave your right to that money (only he has the right to sue others).

This has been my point, his definition of religion is not according to the NT but rather serves his purposes to collect every dollar he can from the saints.

[ZNPaaneah]

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword: 13I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner. 16Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.

This is the church where we can really see what Witness Lee refers to as “degraded Christianity”. You have Balaam, a false prophet, teaching the believers to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. You have still more who hold the teachings of the Nicolaitans (which are in like manner to Balaam’s teachings). They are dwelling where Satan’s throne is. Faithful brothers like Antipas are being killed in their midst.

But here is the thing, if you want the hidden manna you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. If you want a white stone with a new name written on it you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. It seems to me obvious that this “white stone with a new name” refers to the children of Israel crossing the Jordan river and entering into the good land. So is this church really degraded, or does our entrance into the rich church life take place when we overcome these things?

If you think of these things as “degraded” then you don’t want anything to do with them. But if you think of them as something that you must overcome in order to be fully matured it is a very different attitude.

Who is Balaam? He is the NT meme for a false prophet. Did he speak the word of God? Yes. Did he have genuine experiences of God? Yes. Were his prophecies concerning Israel false? No. So then, what makes him a false prophet?

He was motivated by money, a house full of gold to be precise. He was willing to sell out to Balak to teach him how to stumble the children of Israel with idolatry and fornication.

So then, how does he do it? How do you teach the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols while at the same time speaking God's word?

1. You build a true teaching on the MOTA, showing from the Old Testament types that a prophet like Moses would come, Jesus.

However you place the context of this teaching about NT ministries and let the naive babes in Christ come to the erroneous conclusion that they have discovered some secret principle that at any given time the Lord is only moving through one genuine ministry, the one with the vision for the age. You don't say it in those words, you let Ray Graver and others like him say it. Your protestations make it sound not like a disagreement with Ray but that you didn't want it revealed who you were. Then, bingo, you are now the MOTA, another Jesus, and all the churches are now "indebted" to your ministry. Partaking of your ministry is akin to eating things sacrificed to idols.

2. Problem is that your Balaam's sins, his actions are going to cause confusion. So you build this doctrine of deification. Because of all the time you have spent in the Bible, in the word, at the feet of Watchman Nee, etc he has become "deified". Everyone under his ministry will be deified too, only not to the same extent. So the reason you don't understand and have questions is that he is deified and you have not been deified as much. If that doesn't shut you up then remember, a question mark looks like a serpent. Finally, if you are still going to ask questions we can get rid of you like we did with so many others.

Does Balaam preach the gospel? Sort of, it is a different gospel, but it is a gospel of being deified, of being the elite Christians, and the gospel of being the only ones to know who the MOTA is.

We also have the Nicolaitans which are described as being "in like manner" to Balaam in that they also cast a stumbling block before the children of God. This tells us a lot about what is going on. You have two approaches to the church life described by Jesus in Matt 18, one approach we seek out the lost sheep, we bring them back to the fold, we rejoice. The other is you place a stumbling block before the lambs of God, they are sacrificed to Satan, God's enemy. If you want to enter into the rich church life then you overcome these ones, you have to follow the Lord:

7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh! 8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire. 10 See that ye despise not one of these little ones: for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. 12 How think ye? if any man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and go unto the mountains, and seek that which goeth astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth over it more than over the ninety and nine which have not gone astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

As you can see, according to the Lord's word, these experiences "must needs be that they come". Therefore I don't like the term "degraded" church, rather I prefer "necessary experiences to mature into Christ"

[Evangelical]

ZNPaaneah, with some connection to to Lee's book The Overcomers, we could consider his view of church ages in history to be stages of overcoming.