Do you think Christianity is degraded?

testallthings · 10-11-2016, 09:46 PM

NEUTER WORDS

The word religion is found twice in the letter of James. In itself it doesn't have a positive or a negative connotation. It needs other words to define it. This is not something new. The New Testament has many examples of words that although in themselves “neuter” may have striking and sometimes opposite meanings.

Think about the word god/God. The word might refer to the only and wise God and to the god of this world (Satan). Or consider the word father/Father. The word often refers to God our Father but also to Satan the father of lie.

In the letter of James we have the example of the wisdom that comes from above and the wisdom that is devilish.

Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

For James, religion can be vain (1:26) or pure (1:27).

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Ohio · 10-12-2016, 03:44 AM

Christ was never against religion per se, but against hypocrisy.

Nee and Lee twisted this simple fact in order to condemn all others but themselves.

ZNPaaneah · 10-12-2016, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by testallthings

NEUTER WORDS

By all means, you can say that "pure religion" is different from "vain religion". Witness Lee does not make this distinction.

This anti religion flavor in the LRC is very influential. Why is it that their are no charitable works in the LRC? It is because Witness Lee labeled them as "religion" which has a negative connotation. Even if it is "good" it "distracts" you from the central lane. What is the "central lane"? It is attending his trainings, paying his fees, buying his books, supporting his ministry and supporting his legal defense team. The only "charity" is a donation to his ministry or you can invest money with him and then wave your right to that money (only he has the right to sue others).

This has been my point, his definition of religion is not according to the NT but rather serves his purposes to collect every dollar he can from the saints.

ZNPaaneah · 10-12-2016, 05:47 AM

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword: 13I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner. 16Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.

This is the church where we can really see what Witness Lee refers to as “degraded Christianity”. You have Balaam, a false prophet, teaching the believers to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. You have still more who hold the teachings of the Nicolaitans (which are in like manner to Balaam’s teachings). They are dwelling where Satan’s throne is. Faithful brothers like Antipas are being killed in their midst.

But here is the thing, if you want the hidden manna you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. If you want a white stone with a new name written on it you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. It seems to me obvious that this “white stone with a new name” refers to the children of Israel crossing the Jordan river and entering into the good land. So is this church really degraded, or does our entrance into the rich church life take place when we overcome these things?

If you think of these things as “degraded” then you don’t want anything to do with them. But if you think of them as something that you must overcome in order to be fully matured it is a very different attitude.

Who is Balaam? He is the NT meme for a false prophet. Did he speak the word of God? Yes. Did he have genuine experiences of God? Yes. Were his prophecies concerning Israel false? No. So then, what makes him a false prophet?

He was motivated by money, a house full of gold to be precise. He was willing to sell out to Balak to teach him how to stumble the children of Israel with idolatry and fornication.

So then, how does he do it? How do you teach the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols while at the same time speaking God's word?

1. You build a true teaching on the MOTA, showing from the Old Testament types that a prophet like Moses would come, Jesus.

However you place the context of this teaching about NT ministries and let the naive babes in Christ come to the erroneous conclusion that they have discovered some secret principle that at any given time the Lord is only moving through one genuine ministry, the one with the vision for the age. You don't say it in those words, you let Ray Graver and others like him say it. Your protestations make it sound not like a disagreement with Ray but that you didn't want it revealed who you were. Then, bingo, you are now the MOTA, another Jesus, and all the churches are now "indebted" to your ministry. Partaking of your ministry is akin to eating things sacrificed to idols.

2. Problem is that your Balaam's sins, his actions are going to cause confusion. So you build this doctrine of deification. Because of all the time you have spent in the Bible, in the word, at the feet of Watchman Nee, etc he has become "deified". Everyone under his ministry will be deified too, only not to the same extent. So the reason you don't understand and have questions is that he is deified and you have not been deified as much. If that doesn't shut you up then remember, a question mark looks like a serpent. Finally, if you are still going to ask questions we can get rid of you like we did with so many others.

Does Balaam preach the gospel? Sort of, it is a different gospel, but it is a gospel of being deified, of being the elite Christians, and the gospel of being the only ones to know who the MOTA is.

We also have the Nicolaitans which are described as being "in like manner" to Balaam in that they also cast a stumbling block before the children of God. This tells us a lot about what is going on. You have two approaches to the church life described by Jesus in Matt 18, one approach we seek out the lost sheep, we bring them back to the fold, we rejoice. The other is you place a stumbling block before the lambs of God, they are sacrificed to Satan, God's enemy. If you want to enter into the rich church life then you overcome these ones, you have to follow the Lord:

7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh! 8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire. 10 See that ye despise not one of these little ones: for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. 12 How think ye? if any man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and go unto the mountains, and seek that which goeth astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth over it more than over the ninety and nine which have not gone astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

As you can see, according to the Lord's word, these experiences "must needs be that they come". Therefore I don't like the term "degraded" church, rather I prefer "necessary experiences to mature into Christ"

Evangelical · 10-12-2016, 10:50 PM

ZNPaaneah, with some connection to to Lee's book The Overcomers, we could consider his view of church ages in history to be stages of overcoming.

ZNPaaneah · 10-13-2016, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, with some connection to to Lee's book The Overcomers, we could consider his view of church ages in history to be stages of overcoming.

No, you are not reading this correctly.

I have no issue with someone who wants to tie this to historical churches, because I think that does have some validity.

But my point is that everyone needs to go through these experiences.

For example, we might look at history and see that there was a specific time in history when Measles was first spotted, then Mumps, then Rubella. That is not my point.

My point is that today, all children need to be immune to all of these diseases. I am likening being immune to a disease to "overcoming" that disease.

My second point is that what Witness Lee refers to as "degraded Christianity" is merely a church that has become infected with one of these diseases. Imagine your child has the measles. Do you say they are "degraded"? I think this terminology indicates a view and an attitude that is not helpful.

If you do not have a cure then, yes, quarantine may be required. But for anyone who has overcome one of these diseases that is no longer a worry, you are immune, there is no need to excommunicate the infected one, rather nurse them back to health.

Evangelical · 10-13-2016, 06:57 AM

I think systematic abuse of children and cover ups is degraded.
I think marrying homosexuals is degraded. I think praying to dead saints and Mary is degraded. I'm sort of happy with the word.

Ohio · 10-13-2016, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think systematic abuse of children and cover ups is degraded.

I think the systematic abuse of sisters at LSM and cover ups is degraded.

That is exactly what happened at LSM for many years. Lee's sons molested the volunteer help and Lee himself covered it up. So how is Lee and the Recovery any better than the Catholic church? They are both degraded!

Those who protested (Like John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon, etc. and etc.), speaking up for the saints, were shut down, their reputations were smeared, branded as rebellious lepers, part of some vast right wing conspiracy. Blessed are they. They suffered for righteousness sake. The Lord will one day reward them. Listen to what the Lord has to say ...

Quote:

10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
12 “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

10-11-2016, 09:46 PM	#1
testallthings Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 297	Re: Do you think Christianity is degraded? NEUTER WORDS The word religion is found twice in the letter of James. In itself it doesn't have a positive or a negative connotation. It needs other words to define it. This is not something new. The New Testament has many examples of words that although in themselves “neuter” may have striking and sometimes opposite meanings. Think about the word god/God. The word might refer to the only and wise God and to the god of this world (Satan). Or consider the word father/Father. The word often refers to God our Father but also to Satan the father of lie. In the letter of James we have the example of the wisdom that comes from above and the wisdom that is devilish. Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. For James, religion can be vain (1:26) or pure (1:27). Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. __________________ TEST ALL THINGS, KEEP THE GOOD

10-12-2016, 03:44 AM	#2
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,693	Re: Do you think Christianity is degraded? Christ was never against religion per se, but against hypocrisy. Nee and Lee twisted this simple fact in order to condemn all others but themselves. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

10-12-2016, 05:47 AM	#4
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7,105	Re: The church in Pergamum 12And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword: 13I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner. 16Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it. This is the church where we can really see what Witness Lee refers to as “degraded Christianity”. You have Balaam, a false prophet, teaching the believers to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. You have still more who hold the teachings of the Nicolaitans (which are in like manner to Balaam’s teachings). They are dwelling where Satan’s throne is. Faithful brothers like Antipas are being killed in their midst. But here is the thing, if you want the hidden manna you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. If you want a white stone with a new name written on it you need to overcome the things in Pergamum. It seems to me obvious that this “white stone with a new name” refers to the children of Israel crossing the Jordan river and entering into the good land. So is this church really degraded, or does our entrance into the rich church life take place when we overcome these things? If you think of these things as “degraded” then you don’t want anything to do with them. But if you think of them as something that you must overcome in order to be fully matured it is a very different attitude. Who is Balaam? He is the NT meme for a false prophet. Did he speak the word of God? Yes. Did he have genuine experiences of God? Yes. Were his prophecies concerning Israel false? No. So then, what makes him a false prophet? He was motivated by money, a house full of gold to be precise. He was willing to sell out to Balak to teach him how to stumble the children of Israel with idolatry and fornication. So then, how does he do it? How do you teach the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols while at the same time speaking God's word? 1. You build a true teaching on the MOTA, showing from the Old Testament types that a prophet like Moses would come, Jesus. However you place the context of this teaching about NT ministries and let the naive babes in Christ come to the erroneous conclusion that they have discovered some secret principle that at any given time the Lord is only moving through one genuine ministry, the one with the vision for the age. You don't say it in those words, you let Ray Graver and others like him say it. Your protestations make it sound not like a disagreement with Ray but that you didn't want it revealed who you were. Then, bingo, you are now the MOTA, another Jesus, and all the churches are now "indebted" to your ministry. Partaking of your ministry is akin to eating things sacrificed to idols. 2. Problem is that your Balaam's sins, his actions are going to cause confusion. So you build this doctrine of deification. Because of all the time you have spent in the Bible, in the word, at the feet of Watchman Nee, etc he has become "deified". Everyone under his ministry will be deified too, only not to the same extent. So the reason you don't understand and have questions is that he is deified and you have not been deified as much. If that doesn't shut you up then remember, a question mark looks like a serpent. Finally, if you are still going to ask questions we can get rid of you like we did with so many others. Does Balaam preach the gospel? Sort of, it is a different gospel, but it is a gospel of being deified, of being the elite Christians, and the gospel of being the only ones to know who the MOTA is. We also have the Nicolaitans which are described as being "in like manner" to Balaam in that they also cast a stumbling block before the children of God. This tells us a lot about what is going on. You have two approaches to the church life described by Jesus in Matt 18, one approach we seek out the lost sheep, we bring them back to the fold, we rejoice. The other is you place a stumbling block before the lambs of God, they are sacrificed to Satan, God's enemy. If you want to enter into the rich church life then you overcome these ones, you have to follow the Lord: 7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh! 8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire. 10 See that ye despise not one of these little ones: for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. 12 How think ye? if any man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and go unto the mountains, and seek that which goeth astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth over it more than over the ninety and nine which have not gone astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. As you can see, according to the Lord's word, these experiences "must needs be that they come". Therefore I don't like the term "degraded" church, rather I prefer "necessary experiences to mature into Christ"

10-12-2016, 10:50 PM	#5
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,965	Re: The church in Pergamum ZNPaaneah, with some connection to to Lee's book The Overcomers, we could consider his view of church ages in history to be stages of overcoming.

10-13-2016, 06:57 AM	#7
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,965	Re: The church in Pergamum I think systematic abuse of children and cover ups is degraded. I think marrying homosexuals is degraded. I think praying to dead saints and Mary is degraded. I'm sort of happy with the word.