Do you think Christianity is degraded?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Others, such as testallthings has already picked up your inability to quote and reference on topic, when you provided a quote to me in another thread from Watchman Nee's book that was nothing to do with what you said it meant.

Oh, my bad.

You said "My post showed you that he did not "denigrate a term".

are you saying that these quotes of Witness Lee are not on topic or have nothing to do with what you said?


“Anything that is scriptural and even spiritual, yet without life, becomes religion” (Witness Lee, Christ versus Religion, Chapter 12, Section 6)

"Religion is a human invention, a product of the fallen human mind." (Witness Lee, Life Study of John, Chapter 14, Section 1)

"religion is anything done for Christ but not having the presence and reality of Christ." (Witness Lee, Enjoying Christ as the All-inclusive Spirit for the Practical, Genuine, and Real Church Life, Chapter 1, Section 3).

"Religion is to try to worship God but without God, Christ, or the Spirit." (Witness Lee, The Recovery of Christ in the Present Evil Age, Chapter 1, Section 2)

You said "You seem to be twisted Lee's words to mean that he was against taking care of orphans and widows. That is not the meaning of being "against religion".

And to that I responded with the following quotes to show that Witness Lee was against charitable works and was against religion.


"Religion is something formed by the human mentality under Satan's instigation and inspiration in order to oppose God's economy. Apparently, religion is for God, but in actuality, it is fully against Him." (Witness Lee, The Lord's Recovery and the Present Situation of Religion, Chapter 2, Section 1)

We do not like to set up social and charitable works such as schools and hospitals. The apostle Paul did not do this kind of work. (Witness Lee, Basic Lessons on Service, Chapter 15, Section 2).

Are you saying that these quotes do not adequately respond to what you said?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Oh, my bad.

You said "My post showed you that he did not "denigrate a term".

are you saying that these quotes of Witness Lee are not on topic or have nothing to do with what you said?


“Anything that is scriptural and even spiritual, yet without life, becomes religion” (Witness Lee, Christ versus Religion, Chapter 12, Section 6)

"Religion is a human invention, a product of the fallen human mind." (Witness Lee, Life Study of John, Chapter 14, Section 1)

"religion is anything done for Christ but not having the presence and reality of Christ." (Witness Lee, Enjoying Christ as the All-inclusive Spirit for the Practical, Genuine, and Real Church Life, Chapter 1, Section 3).

"Religion is to try to worship God but without God, Christ, or the Spirit." (Witness Lee, The Recovery of Christ in the Present Evil Age, Chapter 1, Section 2)

You said "You seem to be twisted Lee's words to mean that he was against taking care of orphans and widows. That is not the meaning of being "against religion".

And to that I responded with the following quotes to show that Witness Lee was against charitable works and was against religion.


"Religion is something formed by the human mentality under Satan's instigation and inspiration in order to oppose God's economy. Apparently, religion is for God, but in actuality, it is fully against Him." (Witness Lee, The Lord's Recovery and the Present Situation of Religion, Chapter 2, Section 1)

We do not like to set up social and charitable works such as schools and hospitals. The apostle Paul did not do this kind of work. (Witness Lee, Basic Lessons on Service, Chapter 15, Section 2).

Are you saying that these quotes do not adequately respond to what you said?

ZNPaaneah, in all those quotes I cannot find anything which is out to denigrate the term religion.

Religion in this context means a system of beliefs and rituals. If you prefer to use the definition of religion in James, that is fine, but the majority of people in the world do not define religion in this way.
So when Lee speaks of religion he is not speaking about helping orphans and widows, but a system of man-made beliefs and rituals.
Lee is saying that a system of beliefs and rituals cannot give life.

This is what his first quote means
"“Anything that is scriptural and even spiritual, yet without life, becomes religion”

The fact that I found one quote where Lee spoke positively of religion, saying it is good, proves that he did not denigrate the term.

Yes, he said religion is against God. But it is. Hard for you to argue that Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc is not against God in as much as they reject Christ.

Lee was not against helping widows and orphans, he was saying that like Paul, it is not the focus of his ministry.

In short, his view is that religion is good from a human perspective, but cannot give life, only Christ can.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, in all those quotes I cannot find anything which is out to denigrate the term religion.

Religion in this context means a system of beliefs and rituals. If you prefer to use the definition of religion in James, that is fine, but the majority of people in the world do not define religion in this way.
So when Lee speaks of religion he is not speaking about helping orphans and widows, but a system of man-made beliefs and rituals.
Lee is saying that a system of beliefs and rituals cannot give life.

This is what his first quote means
"“Anything that is scriptural and even spiritual, yet without life, becomes religion”

The fact that I found one quote where Lee spoke positively of religion, saying it is good, proves that he did not denigrate the term.

Yes, he said religion is against God. But it is. Hard for you to argue that Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc is not against God in as much as they reject Christ.

Lee was not against helping widows and orphans, he was saying that like Paul, it is not the focus of his ministry.

In short, his view is that religion is good from a human perspective, but cannot give life, only Christ can.

And where in the New Testament does any of the apostles say this?

Witness Lee's definition is not supported by the New Testament. The word "religion" is never used in the way he describes nor can it ever be defined in his way. He has confused the "Judaizers" with the Jewish religion.

In the church in Smyrna we learn of "the synagogue of Satan", people who say they are Jews and are not. You can't call them the Jewish religion, they aren't. Yes, the synagogue of Satan is accurately described by Witness Lee's definition, but he has incorrectly defined religion as being the synagogue of Satan and that is a mistake.

Witness Lee made a big deal of how the "sheep and goats" do not refer to the believers and unbelievers, but rather to two types of unbelievers. That definition is crucial for understanding eternal salvation.

Well, in the same way he has mashed up "the synagogue of Satan" with all religion. This is a mistake.

To equate pure religion with "the synagogue of Satan" is to denigrate pure religion.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

And where in the New Testament does any of the apostles say this?

Witness Lee's definition is not supported by the New Testament. The word "religion" is never used in the way he describes nor can it ever be defined in his way. He has confused the "Judaizers" with the Jewish religion.

In the church in Smyrna we learn of "the synagogue of Satan", people who say they are Jews and are not. You can't call them the Jewish religion, they aren't. Yes, the synagogue of Satan is accurately described by Witness Lee's definition, but he has incorrectly defined religion as being the synagogue of Satan and that is a mistake.

Witness Lee made a big deal of how the "sheep and goats" do not refer to the believers and unbelievers, but rather to two types of unbelievers. That definition is crucial for understanding eternal salvation.

Well, in the same way he has mashed up "the synagogue of Satan" with all religion. This is a mistake.

To equate pure religion with "the synagogue of Satan" is to denigrate pure religion.

ZNPaaneah, most people in the world use the term religion to mean a system of man-made beliefs and rituals. Continuing to argue your point of view from the "correct" view of the meaning of religion (as taking care of orphans and widows), is not logical. The Bible says only God or Christ gives (eternal) life. Religions don't give life. Actually, even taking care of orphans and widows does not give eternal life. Both false religion and true religion cannot give life. We are against religion on the basis that it does not give life, everyone will die someday and people without life will go to hell for eternity. Care for widows and orphans all you like but when they die they will go to hell without Christ.

I am really itching to start a discussion with you about "sheep and goats" and a strange doctrine resulting from that which says we can be saved by giving someone a cup of water. But perhaps for another time.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, most people in the world use the term religion to mean a system of man-made beliefs and rituals. Continuing to argue your point of view from the "correct" view of the meaning of religion (as taking care of orphans and widows), is not logical. The Bible says only God or Christ gives (eternal) life. Religions don't give life. Actually, even taking care of orphans and widows does not give eternal life. Both false religion and true religion cannot give life. We are against religion on the basis that it does not give life, everyone will die someday and people without life will go to hell for eternity. Care for widows and orphans all you like but when they die they will go to hell without Christ.

I am really itching to start a discussion with you about "sheep and goats" and a strange doctrine resulting from that which says we can be saved by giving someone a cup of water. But perhaps for another time.

We are discussing "degraded Christianity". I have already said that in this thread my standard as to what is and is not degraded is the fellowship of the apostles. I don't care what "most people think". I care what does the NT say about religion. The apostles used this term, so what did it mean. Witness Lee tries to tell you that it was used by the apostles to mean one thing, but that is not true. It wasn't used by them to mean that at all.

Instead the term Judaizers did mean that, Jezebel, Balaam, Nicolaitans, synagogue of Satan. I don't disagree that the truth of what Witness Lee is teaching is not in the New Testament, but I disagree with applying it in a broad brush to all religion. This is a huge point and the way Witness Lee operated. He takes a genuine truth, like the ground of the church, shows all the verses, spends a lot of time proving there is this truth, and then misapplies it. The ground of the church was purchased by the Lord's blood. The idea that it is therefore the boundary line of a city which may change 20 different times over 100 years, which is subject to the vagaries of the world, is absurd. Yes, there is a ground of the church, that is a very well established truth in the Bible, but saying that this ground is defined by the boundary of a city is based on the poorest possible evidence for such an important truth.

By applying words concerning "the synagogue of Satan" to "pure religion" Witness Lee justifies all kinds of sins. He slanders all other believers. He teaches against having any charitable giving other than to the Living Stream Ministry for standing book orders, chairs, motor homes, tennis rackets, legal defense teams, etc. You are straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I am really itching to start a discussion with you about "sheep and goats" and a strange doctrine resulting from that which says we can be saved by giving someone a cup of water. But perhaps for another time.

I think it would help everyone on the forum if you introduced yourself so that we knew a little bit more about who we are fellowshipping with.

One brother on this forum is from Southern California, another is from Austin Texas, another is from Dallas, two are from Florida, one is from Ohio, another from Toronto and another from Seattle.

I was from both Houston Texas and NYC. I also was with the church in Irving TX for 18 months and Odessa Texas for several years. Most of the ones who post the most came into the church in the 70s. We were in every Life Study either with WL or else in the video conference. Many of us went to the FTT in Taipei in the 80s.

I would estimate that everyone on this forum (with the possible exception of Awareness -- I still have no idea what he accepts) accepts 90+% of Witness Lee's doctrines. Our primary issue is with the practice (the sins, the lawsuits, the slander, the investment scams, the bullying, etc). It is not so much what they say but what they do. For many of us on this forum who post regularly, we knew that through our speaking we had taught this way to many people, so we felt accountable for the hypocrisy.

It seems to my observation that you think we are on this forum because we read a snippet of Witness Lee's that we disagreed with. Look at the testimonies, many gave 20 years or more to the LRC. Besides being in the church for 20 years I served in LSM for more than 5 years (printing, construction, training). For 2 1/2 years I was full time.

So I think it will eliminate a lot of misunderstandings if you just did a better job of introducing yourself and perhaps trying to understand us a little as well. Thanks

[TLFisher]

It's one thing to call non-LC/LSM Christianity degraded yet LC is very much part of Christianity. Perhaps it's A concept that only through LSM publications can one become zealous for Jesus. That one can be in fellowship with those who have the pulse on what God's move on the earth is.
Call it whatever you like. Knowing how some in the Local Churches think very highly of it's movement, there are many Christians beyond the LC fellowship who are just as zealous as one might find within the LC fellowship.
Going back to the question of ZNP, is Christianity degraded? Yes, all of it is since man is imperfect.

[testallthings]

NEUTER WORDS

The word religion is found twice in the letter of James. In itself it doesn't have a positive or a negative connotation. It needs other words to define it. This is not something new. The New Testament has many examples of words that although in themselves “neuter” may have striking and sometimes opposite meanings.

Think about the word god/God. The word might refer to the only and wise God and to the god of this world (Satan). Or consider the word father/Father. The word often refers to God our Father but also to Satan the father of lie.

In the letter of James we have the example of the wisdom that comes from above and the wisdom that is devilish.

Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

For James, religion can be vain (1:26) or pure (1:27).

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.