Recovering a Pure Testimony of Jesus

[Indiana]

A Pure Testimony of Jesus - 1983, W. Lee

“The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained. Some have checked with me asking, Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that. If any people have become rotten, they are no more in the reality of the Lord's recovery. Whatever and whoever is rotten is not in the recovery. The local churches are people who have been recovered out of their rottenness back to the pure church life. The local church is not a kind of organization or religious group. The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Concerning the Lord's Recovery chapter 1 section 4, 1983)

http://www.twoturmoils.com/Recoverin...onyofJesus.pdf

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A Pure Testimony of Jesus - 1983, W. Lee

“The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained. Some have checked with me asking, Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that. If any people have become rotten, they are no more in the reality of the Lord's recovery. Whatever and whoever is rotten is not in the recovery. The local churches are people who have been recovered out of their rottenness back to the pure church life. The local church is not a kind of organization or religious group. The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Concerning the Lord's Recovery chapter 1 section 4, 1983)

John Ingalls' (and others) message back in the late 80's was that the LSM leadership over the LC's had become rotten to the core, and hence the LSM leadership was no longer a part of the Recovery.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A Pure Testimony of Jesus - 1983, W. Lee

“The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained. Some have checked with me asking, Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that. If any people have become rotten, they are no more in the reality of the Lord's recovery. Whatever and whoever is rotten is not in the recovery. The local churches are people who have been recovered out of their rottenness back to the pure church life. The local church is not a kind of organization or religious group. The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Concerning the Lord's Recovery chapter 1 section 4, 1983)

www.twoturmoils.com/RecoveringAPureTestimonyofJesus.pdf

Please comment. This is begging for a position.

Are you suggesting that what Lee said was right, reasonable, marginal, questionable, ridiculous, etc.?

As I read it, he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth.

He says "Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that." That would seem to indicate that rottenness is not about being "local church people."

But the next three sentences seem to indicate that only the "local church people," or those "in the recovery" seem to not be rotten. Maybe he is indicating that some "local church" people may not truly be recovered and are therefore rotten. But it would seem that those not "in the recovery" are not even on the radar.

Very subtle use of words. I think that we were fools to think of him as someone who was not adept at the technical nuances of the English language. He was a master.

Of deceit and double-speak.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A Pure Testimony of Jesus - 1983, W. Lee

“The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained..... If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Concerning the Lord's Recovery chapter 1 section 4, 1983)

http://www.twoturmoils.com/Recoverin...onyofJesus.pdf

Indiana summed it up well, but with Witness Lee's words. Character and reality. Let's phrase what was said differently, but the outcome is still the same:
We are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery if we don't maintain the high standard of character and become rotten...
These two initial points of character and reality is only touching the tip of the iceberg.
Let's address the present. Where is the character of the blended brothers. Has their character been bought with the salaries LSM provides? One could argue the business of Living Stream Ministry IS Witness Lee's ministry. That being said, Witness Lee's image must be impeccable. That's why blended brothers, LSM coworkers, etc cannot repent for anything from the past. Repentance is bad for business.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

Indiana summed it up well, but with Witness Lee's words. Character and reality. Let's phrase what was said differently, but the outcome is still the same:
We are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery if we don't maintain the high standard of character and become rotten...
These two initial points of character and reality is only touching the tip of the iceberg.
Let's address the present. Where is the character of the blended brothers. Has their character been bought with the salaries LSM provides? One could argue the business of Living Stream Ministry IS Witness Lee's ministry. That being said, Witness Lee's image must be impeccable. That's why blended brothers, LSM coworkers, etc cannot repent for anything from the past. Repentance is bad for business.

The Lord Jesus established His church not a recovery. The recovery is a construct of man used to build religious empires. The Lord did not die for a recovery, He died for His church. The Lord is coming back for His church not a recovery.

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A Pure Testimony of Jesus - 1983, W. Lee

“The Lord's recovery is really among us, and, although the scale is quite small, the standard of the character is higher than Christianity. In the Lord's recovery the high standard of the character must be kept and maintained. Some have checked with me asking, Do you mean that all the other Christians are rotten and that only the local church people are not rotten? I don't mean that. If any people have become rotten, they are no more in the reality of the Lord's recovery. Whatever and whoever is rotten is not in the recovery. The local churches are people who have been recovered out of their rottenness back to the pure church life. The local church is not a kind of organization or religious group. The local church is the pure church life as a pure testimony of Jesus. If we become rotten, we are no longer in the reality of the Lord's recovery. (Concerning the Lord's Recovery chapter 1 section 4, 1983)

http://www.twoturmoils.com/Recoverin...onyofJesus.pdf

Brother Lee often stated that he followed brother Nee. Perhaps his priority should have been to follow the Lord. We are encouraged to imitate those believers that persue Christ, but we must always have the eyes of our heart fixed on the Lord. As we know all to well, and as WL has stated himself: "people can change". Now we see the blendeds following a man - making the same mistakes.

I find it interesting and extremely pervasive throughout brother Lee's writings that it is we who must see the vision as presented by a minister and his vision, being himself of course; Implying that God does not reveal His heart to all His devout servants but has this unique minister of the age with a unique vision.
Now if this unique minister should make a mistake and perhaps deviate from this unique vision, then God would have a real problem since he has only one unique minister for each unique age having its own unique vision.

Does this sound strange? Of course it does. But even worse it is extra-biblical and the fruit of this kind of thinking has resulted in a great deal of unrepented sin and division. The history posted by our brother speaks for itself.

The Father loves the Son exceedingly and has given Him all things: All things are through Him and for Him and to Him; He has the first place in all things and He is the fullness that fills all and in all! He is the head of His Body, the Church. The result of the vision is to sum up all things in Christ both in the heavens and on the earth. This vision has been around for a long time and many have seen it. And because of this God gives us Apostle(s), Prophet(s), Teacher(s) and various ministrie(s) for the perfecting of the saints until we all arrive at a full-grown man in Christ. There is no mention of any unique minister with a unique vision which all must follow or they "are not in it". All this is imaginary conjecture based upon the Old Testament with disasterous results.

Today God speaks to us in His son through His many devoted servants who deny themselves and take up their cross. Those that follow the Lamb - Not a man. The definition of an overcomer is: They overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony and they loved not their soul life unto the death.

Come back to the pure Word - be an overcomer!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Brother Lee often stated that he followed brother Nee. Perhaps his priority should have been to follow the Lord. We are encouraged to imitate those believers that persue Christ, but we must always have the eyes of our heart fixed on the Lord. As we know all to well, and as WL has stated himself: "people can change". Now we see the blendeds following a man - making the same mistakes.

I find it interesting and extremely pervasive throughout brother Lee's writings that it is we who must see the vision as presented by a minister and his vision, being himself of course; Implying that God does not reveal His heart to all His devout servants but has this unique minister of the age with a unique vision.
Now if this unique minister should make a mistake and perhaps deviate from this unique vision, then God would have a real problem since he has only one unique minister for each unique age having its own unique vision.

Does this sound strange? Of course it does. But even worse it is extra-biblical and the fruit of this kind of thinking has resulted in a great deal of unrepented sin and division. The history posted by our brother speaks for itself.

The Father loves the Son exceedingly and has given Him all things: All things are through Him and for Him and to Him; He has the first place in all things and He is the fullness that fills all and in all! He is the head of His Body, the Church. The result of the vision is to sum up all things in Christ both in the heavens and on the earth. This vision has been around for a long time and many have seen it. And because of this God gives us Apostle(s), Prophet(s), Teacher(s) and various ministrie(s) for the perfecting of the saints until we all arrive at a full-grown man in Christ. There is no mention of any unique minister with a unique vision which all must follow or they "are not in it". All this is imaginary conjecture based upon the Old Testament with disasterous results.

Today God speaks to us in His son through His many devoted servants who deny themselves and take up their cross. Those that follow the Lamb - Not a man. The definition of an overcomer is: They overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony and they loved not their soul life unto the death.

Come back to the pure Word - be an overcomer!

Amen! Preach it NML!

[JJ]

Thanks, Indiana for starting this thread with Witness Lee's own words, and insightful commentary. And to the other brothers who have added insightful commentary as well.

As I look back on the mid 1980's, when the excerpt from Witness Lee was spoken, I see both the call to further recovery through purity in and to Christ, and the casting of eyes upon and praising of ourselves that was and still is prevalent in "the recovery". That looking upon and loving the beauty that was given by the Lord for His glory, and not being willing to share it with others and point to Him as the source has been the source of today's lukewarmness, and will be what causes the Lord to spew the lukewarm church out of His mouth.

As I read the apostle John's letter to the church in Laodicea in Revelation 3 today, and footnotes in the recovery version, I see a letter to ourselves with a warning and prescription for what ails us. Turn to The Amen, The faithful and true Witness, The beginning of the creation of God, Jesus Christ. Buy from Him gold tried in the fire that we may be rich, and white garments that we may be clothed and that the shame of our nakedness may not be manifested and eyesalve to annoint our eyes that we may see. Hear His voice knocking at the door outside of the church, and open the door to Him, so He may come in to us, dine with us, and us with Him.

[OBW]

I just have to wonder what it is that a "call to further recovery" means? What has been lost that needs to be found? What was missing? Seems that the things that Nee, Lee and the LRC stand for that are the cornerstones of their version of "recovery" are things that only appear as such because of the negative spin put on everything else and the special teachings that come from God's self-appointed oracle.

Without denying wonderful times that many had in earlier days, I question what it is that needed recovering and whether the LRC even managed to recover the things that it said needed recovering back in the 60s and 70s.

Or was the whole thing a set of slowly moving goalposts.

First it is just the ground and the church — that autonomous group in each city that does not answer to anyone but God. And we sang songs about how great the "church life" was. We lived to go to meetings. We learned to hack the words of the Bible into one to three words at a time — losing context and meaning — and chanted them until we were euphoric.

And it moved forward from there until one day there was an oracle. A minister of the age. Something that was strongly denied only a decade or so earlier as the lawsuits (did someone say a church suing?) were trying to establish the LRC as just a bunch of normal, orthodox Christians.

Some say that the LRC of today is not recognizable compared to that of the 60s and early 70s. But I would suggested that there was a curtain that was occasionally opened to let us into just a little bit of what was hiding there. Just enough to make us hungry for being special.

If we want a pure testimony of Jesus, we need to find people who are:

• Hungering and thirsting for righteousness.
• Who are meek.
• Who are truly humble.
• Who are peacemakers.
• Who shine the light of Christ.
• Who love their neighbors (and not just the lovable ones).
• Who demonstrate the character of Christ before trying to sell it.

That is not the testimony of the LRC. It may be of some individual members. But they cannot overcome what the group is.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

If we want a pure testimony of Jesus, we need to find people who are:

• Hungering and thirsting for righteousness.
• Who are meek.
• Who are truly humble.
• Who are peacemakers.
• Who shine the light of Christ.
• Who love their neighbors (and not just the lovable ones).
• Who demonstrate the character of Christ before trying to sell it.

That is not the testimony of the LRC. It may be of some individual members. But they cannot overcome what the group is.

Right on OBW.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by OBW

I just have to wonder what it is that a "call to further recovery" means? What has been lost that needs to be found? What was missing? Seems that the things that Nee, Lee and the LRC stand for that are the cornerstones of their version of "recovery" are things that only appear as such because of the negative spin put on everything else and the special teachings that come from God's self-appointed oracle.

Without denying wonderful times that many had in earlier days, I question what it is that needed recovering and whether the LRC even managed to recover the things that it said needed recovering back in the 60s and 70s.

Or was the whole thing a set of slowly moving goalposts.

First it is just the ground and the church — that autonomous group in each city that does not answer to anyone but God. And we sang songs about how great the "church life" was. We lived to go to meetings. We learned to hack the words of the Bible into one to three words at a time — losing context and meaning — and chanted them until we were euphoric.

And it moved forward from there until one day there was an oracle. A minister of the age. Something that was strongly denied only a decade or so earlier as the lawsuits (did someone say a church suing?) were trying to establish the LRC as just a bunch of normal, orthodox Christians.

Some say that the LRC of today is not recognizable compared to that of the 60s and early 70s. But I would suggested that there was a curtain that was occasionally opened to let us into just a little bit of what was hiding there. Just enough to make us hungry for being special.

If we want a pure testimony of Jesus, we need to find people who are:

• Hungering and thirsting for righteousness.
• Who are meek.
• Who are truly humble.
• Who are peacemakers.
• Who shine the light of Christ.
• Who love their neighbors (and not just the lovable ones).
• Who demonstrate the character of Christ before trying to sell it.

That is not the testimony of the LRC. It may be of some individual members. But they cannot overcome what the group is.

I too would also like to say amen to brother OBW! All and more of the fruit of the Spirit!

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. NIV

[JJ]

Originally Posted by OBW

I just have to wonder what it is that a "call to further recovery" means? What has been lost that needs to be found? What was missing? Seems that the things that Nee, Lee and the LRC stand for that are the cornerstones of their version of "recovery" are things that only appear as such because of the negative spin put on everything else and the special teachings that come from God's self-appointed oracle.

Without denying wonderful times that many had in earlier days, I question what it is that needed recovering and whether the LRC even managed to recover the things that it said needed recovering back in the 60s and 70s.

Or was the whole thing a set of slowly moving goalposts.

First it is just the ground and the church — that autonomous group in each city that does not answer to anyone but God. And we sang songs about how great the "church life" was. We lived to go to meetings. We learned to hack the words of the Bible into one to three words at a time — losing context and meaning — and chanted them until we were euphoric.

And it moved forward from there until one day there was an oracle. A minister of the age. Something that was strongly denied only a decade or so earlier as the lawsuits (did someone say a church suing?) were trying to establish the LRC as just a bunch of normal, orthodox Christians.

Some say that the LRC of today is not recognizable compared to that of the 60s and early 70s. But I would suggested that there was a curtain that was occasionally opened to let us into just a little bit of what was hiding there. Just enough to make us hungry for being special.

If we want a pure testimony of Jesus, we need to find people who are:

• Hungering and thirsting for righteousness.
• Who are meek.
• Who are truly humble.
• Who are peacemakers.
• Who shine the light of Christ.
• Who love their neighbors (and not just the lovable ones).
• Who demonstrate the character of Christ before trying to sell it.

That is not the testimony of the LRC. It may be of some individual members. But they cannot overcome what the group is.

Singing songs about the church life - not about Jesus?
Living to go to the meetings - not living to Jesus?
Hacking the Bible - dangerous!
an oracle - not scriptural, its always plural
the minister of the age - never singular in the New Testament, unless we are talking about Jesus

That's degradation, not recovery. True recovery is OBW's list and the list of fruits of the Spirit. We have been measured in the balance and found to be lacking. Oh Lord! Help us!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

an oracle - not scriptural, its always plural
the minister of the age - never singular in the New Testament, unless we are talking about Jesus

Someone wants to declare themselves as oracle should first read Jeremiah 23:33-40 and reconsider....

“Now when this people or the prophet or a priest asks you saying, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ then you shall say to them, ‘What oracle?’ The Lord declares, ‘I will abandon you.’ 34 Then as for the prophet or the priest or the people who say, ‘The oracle of the Lord,’ I will bring punishment upon that man and his household. 35 Thus will each of you say to his neighbor and to his brother, ‘What has the Lord answered?’ or, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 36 For you will no longer remember the oracle of the Lord, because every man’s own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. 37 Thus you will say to that prophet, ‘What has the Lord answered you?’ and, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 38 For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’ 39 Therefore behold, I will surely forget you and cast you away from My presence, along with the city which I gave you and your fathers. 40 I will put an everlasting reproach on you and an everlasting humiliation which will not be forgotten.”

In verse 33, you can also reinsert oracle with burden and the answer is the same.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...=Jeremiah%2023

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

Singing songs about the church life - not about Jesus?
Living to go to the meetings - not living to Jesus?
Hacking the Bible - dangerous!
an oracle - not scriptural, its always plural
the minister of the age - never singular in the New Testament, unless we are talking about Jesus

That's degradation, not recovery. True recovery is OBW's list and the list of fruits of the Spirit. We have been measured in the balance and found to be lacking. Oh Lord! Help us!

It's interesting to think that at one point in time, songs such as "We love the church life" or "Splendid church life" seemed so addictive to me. There just seemed to be something compelling about declaring how much we loved the church life. It's hard to understand why anyone would want to do that, but it is seen all over the LC.

It is probably mostly a matter of LC members finding ways to make themselves feel good about the movement that they are involved in. There are some well-known hymns in the LSM hymnal like "How I love Jesus", but for some reason these types of songs aren't sung much. The gospel of Jesus is viewed as the "low gospel". The so-called gospel of 'recovery' is viewed as the "high gospel", and in many respects it involves worshiping a man and a movement, not Jesus.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It's interesting to think that at one point in time, songs such as "We love the church life" or "Splendid church life" seemed so addictive to me. There just seemed to be something compelling about declaring how much we loved the church life. It's hard to understand why anyone would want to do that, but it is seen all over the LC.

It is probably mostly a matter of LC members finding ways to make themselves feel good about the movement that they are involved in. There are some well-known hymns in the LSM hymnal like "How I love Jesus", but for some reason these types of songs aren't sung much. The gospel of Jesus is viewed as the "low gospel". The so-called gospel of 'recovery' is viewed as the "high gospel", and in many respects it involves worshiping a man and a movement, not Jesus.

I too sang those "loving the church" songs enthusiastically when I was first in a "local church". But, after being outside for many years while carefully studying the Bible and praying, and asking the Lord "what went so horribly wrong?", when I tried to sing many of those songs on periodic attempts to re-enter the local churches it began to hit me. That is where it goes wrong.

The church never worships its human leaders or itself! Run if you are part of a church anywhere that is doing this, and return to the one, and only one who is truly worthy of our worship.

And lest anyone ask "worship ourselves?", count the "we"s in "hymn" 1255 of LSM "Hymns" "We are for the Lord's Recovery" (9 in the first verse alone) and ask who the object of that song is (we), and do the same for other songs in the same section of that song book.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I too sang those "loving the church" songs enthusiastically when I was first in a "local church". But, after being outside for many years while carefully studying the Bible and praying, and asking the Lord "what went so horribly wrong?", when I tried to sing many of those songs on periodic attempts to re-enter the local churches it began to hit me. That is where it goes wrong.

The church never worships its human leaders or itself! Run if you are part of a church anywhere that is doing this, and return to the one, and only one who is truly worthy of our worship.

And lest anyone ask "worship ourselves?", count the "we"s in "hymn" 1255 of LSM "Hymns" "We are for the Lord's Recovery" (9 in the first verse alone) and ask who the object of that song is (we), and do the same for other songs in the same section of that song book.

I think this is so true. LSM and the blendeds with the elders are infected with the spirit of "exaltation of man." Many times I have heard brothers praise another brother for some trait like absoluteness, faithfulness, being constituted. And anyone that has attended an LSM LC can testify to how WL is praised, honored, lifted up, and obeyed. It's true that on the Lord's Day the table meeting attempts to focus on the Lord, but the following prophesying meeting that exalts a mere man and his ministry I think makes the first meeting void. How much of the claimed enjoyment at the table meeting is man's enjoyment rather than the Lord's enjoyment?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think this is so true. LSM and the blendeds with the elders are infected with the spirit of "exaltation of man." Many times I have heard brothers praise another brother for some trait like absoluteness, faithfulness, being constituted. And anyone that has attended an LSM LC can testify to how WL is praised, honored, lifted up, and obeyed. It's true that on the Lord's Day the table meeting attempts to focus on the Lord, but the following prophesying meeting that exalts a mere man and his ministry I think makes the first meeting void. How much of the claimed enjoyment at the table meeting is man's enjoyment rather than the Lord's enjoyment?

Other than a personal subjective experience does anyone know how to determine whether the Lord is pleased with something?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

Other than a personal subjective experience does anyone know how to determine whether the Lord is pleased with something?

I think I'll do a bible study on pleasing the Lord and report back. I seem to remember one of the curmudgeons on here warning us to beware of subjective feelings. I guess that not all that is warm and fuzzy is from God.

[countmeworthy]

go for it!!!

Originally Posted by HERn

I think I'll do a bible study on pleasing the Lord and report back. I seem to remember one of the curmudgeons on here warning us to beware of subjective feelings. I guess that not all that is warm and fuzzy is from God.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

go for it!!!

When it comes to "warm and fuzzy," ole countymeworthy always comes to mind!

So nice to see your smilie faces again.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think this is so true. LSM and the blendeds with the elders are infected with the spirit of "exaltation of man." Many times I have heard brothers praise another brother for some trait like absoluteness, faithfulness, being constituted. And anyone that has attended an LSM LC can testify to how WL is praised, honored, lifted up, and obeyed.

It's been nearly two years since an uncle of mine passed away. At his memorial meeting, I witnessed brothers trying their best from exalting a man (WL) and his ministry. Given brothers may spin it as saying they appreciate and are indebted to Lee's ministry. My retort is you don't need to say anything in order to appreciate. Keep it to yourself. Otherwise if it gives the appearance of what Paul was speaking against in 1 Corinthians 1:12.
When brothers are praising one another, I tend to be cynical. It's no different than the workplace when someone is being lifted up for their performance. Whether in work or in church, you may be lifting them up now, but will you being doing the same when they disappoint?