Recovering a Pure Testimony of Jesus

[JJ]

Originally Posted by OBW

I just have to wonder what it is that a "call to further recovery" means? What has been lost that needs to be found? What was missing? Seems that the things that Nee, Lee and the LRC stand for that are the cornerstones of their version of "recovery" are things that only appear as such because of the negative spin put on everything else and the special teachings that come from God's self-appointed oracle.

Without denying wonderful times that many had in earlier days, I question what it is that needed recovering and whether the LRC even managed to recover the things that it said needed recovering back in the 60s and 70s.

Or was the whole thing a set of slowly moving goalposts.

First it is just the ground and the church — that autonomous group in each city that does not answer to anyone but God. And we sang songs about how great the "church life" was. We lived to go to meetings. We learned to hack the words of the Bible into one to three words at a time — losing context and meaning — and chanted them until we were euphoric.

And it moved forward from there until one day there was an oracle. A minister of the age. Something that was strongly denied only a decade or so earlier as the lawsuits (did someone say a church suing?) were trying to establish the LRC as just a bunch of normal, orthodox Christians.

Some say that the LRC of today is not recognizable compared to that of the 60s and early 70s. But I would suggested that there was a curtain that was occasionally opened to let us into just a little bit of what was hiding there. Just enough to make us hungry for being special.

If we want a pure testimony of Jesus, we need to find people who are:

• Hungering and thirsting for righteousness.
• Who are meek.
• Who are truly humble.
• Who are peacemakers.
• Who shine the light of Christ.
• Who love their neighbors (and not just the lovable ones).
• Who demonstrate the character of Christ before trying to sell it.

That is not the testimony of the LRC. It may be of some individual members. But they cannot overcome what the group is.

Singing songs about the church life - not about Jesus?
Living to go to the meetings - not living to Jesus?
Hacking the Bible - dangerous!
an oracle - not scriptural, its always plural
the minister of the age - never singular in the New Testament, unless we are talking about Jesus

That's degradation, not recovery. True recovery is OBW's list and the list of fruits of the Spirit. We have been measured in the balance and found to be lacking. Oh Lord! Help us!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

an oracle - not scriptural, its always plural
the minister of the age - never singular in the New Testament, unless we are talking about Jesus

Someone wants to declare themselves as oracle should first read Jeremiah 23:33-40 and reconsider....

“Now when this people or the prophet or a priest asks you saying, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ then you shall say to them, ‘What oracle?’ The Lord declares, ‘I will abandon you.’ 34 Then as for the prophet or the priest or the people who say, ‘The oracle of the Lord,’ I will bring punishment upon that man and his household. 35 Thus will each of you say to his neighbor and to his brother, ‘What has the Lord answered?’ or, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 36 For you will no longer remember the oracle of the Lord, because every man’s own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. 37 Thus you will say to that prophet, ‘What has the Lord answered you?’ and, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 38 For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’ 39 Therefore behold, I will surely forget you and cast you away from My presence, along with the city which I gave you and your fathers. 40 I will put an everlasting reproach on you and an everlasting humiliation which will not be forgotten.”

In verse 33, you can also reinsert oracle with burden and the answer is the same.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...=Jeremiah%2023

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

Singing songs about the church life - not about Jesus?
Living to go to the meetings - not living to Jesus?
Hacking the Bible - dangerous!
an oracle - not scriptural, its always plural
the minister of the age - never singular in the New Testament, unless we are talking about Jesus

That's degradation, not recovery. True recovery is OBW's list and the list of fruits of the Spirit. We have been measured in the balance and found to be lacking. Oh Lord! Help us!

It's interesting to think that at one point in time, songs such as "We love the church life" or "Splendid church life" seemed so addictive to me. There just seemed to be something compelling about declaring how much we loved the church life. It's hard to understand why anyone would want to do that, but it is seen all over the LC.

It is probably mostly a matter of LC members finding ways to make themselves feel good about the movement that they are involved in. There are some well-known hymns in the LSM hymnal like "How I love Jesus", but for some reason these types of songs aren't sung much. The gospel of Jesus is viewed as the "low gospel". The so-called gospel of 'recovery' is viewed as the "high gospel", and in many respects it involves worshiping a man and a movement, not Jesus.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It's interesting to think that at one point in time, songs such as "We love the church life" or "Splendid church life" seemed so addictive to me. There just seemed to be something compelling about declaring how much we loved the church life. It's hard to understand why anyone would want to do that, but it is seen all over the LC.

It is probably mostly a matter of LC members finding ways to make themselves feel good about the movement that they are involved in. There are some well-known hymns in the LSM hymnal like "How I love Jesus", but for some reason these types of songs aren't sung much. The gospel of Jesus is viewed as the "low gospel". The so-called gospel of 'recovery' is viewed as the "high gospel", and in many respects it involves worshiping a man and a movement, not Jesus.

I too sang those "loving the church" songs enthusiastically when I was first in a "local church". But, after being outside for many years while carefully studying the Bible and praying, and asking the Lord "what went so horribly wrong?", when I tried to sing many of those songs on periodic attempts to re-enter the local churches it began to hit me. That is where it goes wrong.

The church never worships its human leaders or itself! Run if you are part of a church anywhere that is doing this, and return to the one, and only one who is truly worthy of our worship.

And lest anyone ask "worship ourselves?", count the "we"s in "hymn" 1255 of LSM "Hymns" "We are for the Lord's Recovery" (9 in the first verse alone) and ask who the object of that song is (we), and do the same for other songs in the same section of that song book.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I too sang those "loving the church" songs enthusiastically when I was first in a "local church". But, after being outside for many years while carefully studying the Bible and praying, and asking the Lord "what went so horribly wrong?", when I tried to sing many of those songs on periodic attempts to re-enter the local churches it began to hit me. That is where it goes wrong.

The church never worships its human leaders or itself! Run if you are part of a church anywhere that is doing this, and return to the one, and only one who is truly worthy of our worship.

And lest anyone ask "worship ourselves?", count the "we"s in "hymn" 1255 of LSM "Hymns" "We are for the Lord's Recovery" (9 in the first verse alone) and ask who the object of that song is (we), and do the same for other songs in the same section of that song book.

I think this is so true. LSM and the blendeds with the elders are infected with the spirit of "exaltation of man." Many times I have heard brothers praise another brother for some trait like absoluteness, faithfulness, being constituted. And anyone that has attended an LSM LC can testify to how WL is praised, honored, lifted up, and obeyed. It's true that on the Lord's Day the table meeting attempts to focus on the Lord, but the following prophesying meeting that exalts a mere man and his ministry I think makes the first meeting void. How much of the claimed enjoyment at the table meeting is man's enjoyment rather than the Lord's enjoyment?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think this is so true. LSM and the blendeds with the elders are infected with the spirit of "exaltation of man." Many times I have heard brothers praise another brother for some trait like absoluteness, faithfulness, being constituted. And anyone that has attended an LSM LC can testify to how WL is praised, honored, lifted up, and obeyed. It's true that on the Lord's Day the table meeting attempts to focus on the Lord, but the following prophesying meeting that exalts a mere man and his ministry I think makes the first meeting void. How much of the claimed enjoyment at the table meeting is man's enjoyment rather than the Lord's enjoyment?

Other than a personal subjective experience does anyone know how to determine whether the Lord is pleased with something?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

Other than a personal subjective experience does anyone know how to determine whether the Lord is pleased with something?

I think I'll do a bible study on pleasing the Lord and report back. I seem to remember one of the curmudgeons on here warning us to beware of subjective feelings. I guess that not all that is warm and fuzzy is from God.

[countmeworthy]

go for it!!!

Originally Posted by HERn

I think I'll do a bible study on pleasing the Lord and report back. I seem to remember one of the curmudgeons on here warning us to beware of subjective feelings. I guess that not all that is warm and fuzzy is from God.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think this is so true. LSM and the blendeds with the elders are infected with the spirit of "exaltation of man." Many times I have heard brothers praise another brother for some trait like absoluteness, faithfulness, being constituted. And anyone that has attended an LSM LC can testify to how WL is praised, honored, lifted up, and obeyed.

It's been nearly two years since an uncle of mine passed away. At his memorial meeting, I witnessed brothers trying their best from exalting a man (WL) and his ministry. Given brothers may spin it as saying they appreciate and are indebted to Lee's ministry. My retort is you don't need to say anything in order to appreciate. Keep it to yourself. Otherwise if it gives the appearance of what Paul was speaking against in 1 Corinthians 1:12.
When brothers are praising one another, I tend to be cynical. It's no different than the workplace when someone is being lifted up for their performance. Whether in work or in church, you may be lifting them up now, but will you being doing the same when they disappoint?