“Local Church ‘Cult’ Label has stuck”—says LSM Star turned Academic

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

From Tomes:
“the so‐called ‘Shouters,’ [was] a designation given by the Chinese government to various groups in the early 1980s. Historically, the local churches in China have sometimes been wrongly identified by this term [i.e., ‘Shouters,’] in official government documents and press accounts, as have many other genuine Christian groups. Living Stream Ministry and the more than 4000 local churches it supports around the globe have no connection or linkage, formally or informally, to either ‘The Shouters’ or the groups that are currently the focus of the government crackdown, namely ‘Lightning from the East’ and the ‘All Mighty God Sect’."
-The “Statement by Living Stream Ministry Regarding Aberrant Religious Groups in China” appears with LSM-letterhead on the LSM-linked website: http://www.contendingforthefaith.org..._China_en.html

Written while Lee's followers were still shouting ...

Originally Posted by Nigel Tomes

Second, it is disingenuous of LSM to assert that “Living Stream Ministry and the...local churches it supports ...have no connection or linkage, formally or informally, to...‘The Shouters’.” LSM might wish (for obvious reasons) to disassociate itself from the “Eastern Lightning” and the ‘All Mighty God Sect’. However, to claim that LSM and its Local Churches have “no connection or linkage” even “informally, to...‘The Shouters’,” is patently false.

Kudos to Nigel for calling LSM out on this blatant lie. I'm not sure who would believe this, even among LCers. Within the LC, I was always told that 'Shouters' was an undesirable name given LCers in China. I'm sure that for any LCers who are not aware of the LSM statement, and if they were questioned as to who the Shouters are, they would provide an answer indicating that it is another name for those in the LC in China.

It seems LSM think they get to provide the official narrative, after all, no one is going to challenge them. Maybe next they will tell everyone that the sky is green.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It seems LSM think they get to provide the official narrative, after all, no one is going to challenge them. Maybe next they will tell everyone that the sky is green.

Or that Jesus is both the Father and the Spirit ... the Trinity all rolled up in one.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

Or that Jesus is both the Father and the Spirit ... the Trinity all rolled up in one.

You guys crack me up!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I'm not sure who would believe this, even among LCers. Within the LC, I was always told that 'Shouters' was an undesirable name given LCers in China. I'm sure that for any LCers who are not aware of the LSM statement, and if they were questioned as to who the Shouters are, they would provide an answer indicating that it is another name for those in the LC in China

I was in the meeting where WL was citing LC membership around the globe. He got to the end of the list and very dramatically said, "In China, the Shouters, 10 to 15 million" or some other very large number. We all made gasping noises from the audience. If he had wanted to pass on the Shouter appellation, he could have. But he didn't - quite the opposite, in fact; it sounded to us like he embraced the name, and the group.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I was in the meeting where WL was citing LC membership around the globe. He got to the end of the list and very dramatically said, "In China, the Shouters, 10 to 15 million" or some other very large number. We all made gasping noises from the audience. If he had wanted to pass on the Shouter appellation, he could have. But he didn't - quite the opposite, in fact; it sounded to us like he embraced the name, and the group.

LSM had better hope no one has a tape of this meeting.

[zeek]

This may be the statement aron is referring to:

A nation is not built upon a school or a club; its foundation is the homes. Without the homes a nation cannot exist. In the same way, if the church is to prosper today, the homes need to rise up. If the homes in the church are strong, the church will have a good prospect and a bright future. This is the new way revealed to us in the Bible. Today in mainland China, Satan hates the churches that meet in the homes. These churches comprise more than fifty million believers. The authorities condemn the “shouters,” who are predominantly those who meet in the homes. Some saints have written telling us how strong and revived these home meetings in mainland China are. They have no apparent leaders. Whoever tries to be the leader is asking for trouble because the authorities focus their attention on the leaders. However, when everyone is a leader, the authorities can do nothing. (Witness Lee, Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord's Recovery, Book 1: The Vision and Definite Steps for the Practice of the New Way, Chapter 10, Section 2)

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

This may be the statement aron is referring to:

Thanks for finding this. It seems pretty clear that Lee had no intention of hiding the 'shouters' linkage. It should raise a lot of concern as to LSM's intentions. If the Shouters are good, then there is nothing to hide, if the Shouters are bad, then LSM has a lot of explaining to do.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Thanks for finding this. It seems pretty clear that Lee had no intention of hiding the 'shouters' linkage.

I have no idea when the meeting that I remember took place, but it was probably before LSM needed to acknowledge no connection, either formal or informal, with the Shouters. (And Lee was an accountant, after all, always interested in numbers [except when he'd say that he didn't care if anyone took the way of recovery]).

What I remember about the meeting was two things: first was the glaring disparity in the numbers. It was like: "USA & Canada, 40,000; South America, 20,000; Africa, 12,000; Europe, 8,000; Russia, 15,000; Asia, 60,000; China, 50 million". The number from China was an order of magnitude exponentially higher than the others. And Lee was obviously pleased to shock us with such a high number. The second thing was the noise from the crowd when they heard the number. There was this big, collective, "Ooooohhhh!" Like everybody audibly gasped all at once.